WTA & Snus Info from the ECF Forum

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  • wa3zrm
    Member
    • May 2009
    • 4436

    WTA & Snus Info from the ECF Forum

    There is a percentage of smokers who cannot give up cigarettes using ecigarettes no matter how good the equipment they use or the support they are given.
    Nobody knows what this percentage is – estimates range from 10% to 50% or more. This group of people will still smoke the occasional cigarette even when using 36mg liquid on a 5 volt device. They may also revert to smoking cigarettes under stress.
    For these people, the nicotine and the sensation of smoking that an e-cig can provide is not enough – something else is missing.
    Many of these people seem to be able to successfully stop the use of cigarettes if they combine electronic cigarette use with something called Snus which is a small bag of treated tobacco that is kept in the mouth. This suggests that some other ingredient of tobacco is needed that is not supplied by an e-cigarette – in other words, nicotine is not the only ingredient that has people hooked. Anecdotally, using a dual-product solution like this raises the success rate for quitting cigarettes to about 80%.
    It is thought that the missing ingredient may be something called WTA (or whole tobacco alkaloids). These include nornicotine, anabasine, anatabine and myosmine.
    Swedish Snus contains many WTAs, and as the risk of Snus use in Sweden has been shown to be virtually identical to totally quitting by 25 years of very large sample clinical trials and population-level data. It is safe to assume that the consumption of WTAs has no identifiable risk at population level, but individuals should consider their current medical issues or prescriptions (There are possible contra-indications for WTAs, such as the possibility of interaction with meds such as prednisone/prednisolone).

    It is not known which has the least associated risk: Snus or e-liquid with added WTAs. The consumption of WTAs within Snus and within e-liquid are not the same thing: we know that the processing of Snus removes enough of the carcinogens that cancer is no longer a significant issue, but little is known about the processing of WTA e-liquid. Snus has been the subject of a huge amount of medical research; the same cannot be said for WTA eliquid. Until evidence shows otherwise, it cannot be assumed that WTA-inclusive refill liquids are free from health issues. Of course, WTA e-liquid would have to be highly toxic before the risk approached that of smoking.
    The use of WTAs added to e-liquid seems on the face of it to be far safer than continuing to smoke, since it is the smoke that causes virtually all the disease, not the active tobacco compounds. However, it is possible that some carcinogens present in tobacco may accompany the WTAs into the e-liquid.
    • Pharmaceutical-grade nicotine as supplied by corporations such as Dow and used in regular e-liquid is produced to a very high and checkable standard. It is processed extensively to remove anything other than nicotine. Very small amounts of carcinogens remain, but they are considered insignificant. They are seen in nicotine skin patches made from this pharma-grade nicotine, for example, as well as the e-liquid made from it.
    • WTA-containing liquid has not been produced to any known standard. No one knows if it contains carcinogens or not. No analyses are provided.
    • Some WTAs such as nornicotine are associated with carcinogens, in that it is claimed they are harder to eliminate if nornicotine is retained.
    • The production method may or may not remove the carcinogens – but no claims can be made on this subject without the proof: a full analysis – a GC-MS test and associated tests that identify 99.9% of the constituents of the sample.


    Overview
    All things considered, the use of WTAs cigarettes seems a better option than smoking for those persons who cannot successfully quit cigarettes no matter what ecigarette equipment of liquids they use. In our view it is not yet possible to know if the use of WTA liquid and Snus have the same health implications. There is very strong evidence to suggest that the health risk of Snus is known is of low significance but no such evidence exists for WTA e-liquid. The WTAs themselves are unlikely to pose a risk, but the processing of WTA eliuid is an unknown that may introduce of other harmful ingredients.
    Conclusion
    People who are already happy with their e-cig should pass this by – they don’t need it.
    Those with cravings even on 36mg liquid @ 5 volts could try Snus or WTA-added e-liquid in addition to their e-cig with regular liquid. Snus are proven safe but WTAs aren’t, mainly due to the possible inclusion of carcinogens. It is tempting to think of the possible carcinogen level in the vapor as likely to be extremely low, but this is an unproven assumption.

    Source: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/inf...a-eliquid.html
    If you have any problems with my posts or signature


  • Ansel
    Member
    • Feb 2011
    • 3696

    #2
    hmm... not very definite on the saftey compared with snus. I think i will wait in hope of more studies into their safety.

    Comment

    • Snusdog
      Member
      • Jun 2008
      • 6752

      #3
      Good to see snus getting some good pub over at the e-cig forum.........
      When it's my time to go, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my uncle did....... Not screaming in terror like his passengers

      Comment

      • stubby2
        Member
        • Jun 2009
        • 436

        #4
        This piece was written by Rolygate who is not a scientist. It is just an educated opinion though he is probably not far off the mark. This is the original post which shows up on the actual forum as a sticky and is slightly different then the one above.

        http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/for...id-issues.html

        I hadn't vaped for over three years but was curious so gave it a try. I got it from Aroma not long after it became commercially available and noticed a real difference from standard e-liquid. It does have a calming effect to it over the standard liquid as that just leaves me wired.

        I have again retired my e-cig as I preferred snus by a long shot. There is nothing in the WTA e-liquid that I wasn't getting from snus, and snus is a lot less expensive and hassle free. I just never got on with e-cigs, but that is just my own personal preference.

        There is only one reliable source for WTA e-liquid at the moment. You may want to read a bit of a thread that raises some interesting questions about WTA. The person who originally came up with the idea for WTA and made the first experiments with it (DVap) shows up on the thread here. It's a long thread but what I got out of it was that we really don't know the percentage of WTA that is being sold. DVap gets into a bit of that here. The makers of WTA are obviously diluting the mix of WTA with pure nicotine. What that mix is no one outside of the lab knows as neither vender is saying. I tried in the past to nail down what was going on but all I got was evasive answers for Aroma.

        It may sound as if I am against WTA but I am not. The idea is very interesting but for now I have questions about the venders and the way it is being done. It is all kind of "don't ask to many questions. Just trust us as we know what's best for you" kind of thing.

        Comment

        • squeezyjohn
          Member
          • Jan 2008
          • 2497

          #5
          Nice article - but the pedant in me has to make one slight correction!

          Originally posted by wa3zrm
          It is not known which has the least associated risk: Snus or e-liquid with added WTAs. The consumption of WTAs within Snus and within e-liquid are not the same thing: we know that the processing of Snus removes enough of the carcinogens that cancer is no longer a significant issue
          The processing of snus does not REMOVE carcinogens from the tobacco. Plain air-dried tobacco contains very little cancer-causing TSNAs in the first place (if any at all) - what the heat-processing in snus does do is it kills all the microbes in the tobacco-water-salt mix. Fermentation of this tobacco at lower temperatures would allow the microbial action to produce TSNAs as a bi-product of that process.

          For most of it's history - all snus was produced by a fermentation process which was at much lower temperatures than it is processed today. When the switch was made (in the 1980s?) many of the old snus users in Sweden reported that the new stuff was not as good and didn't satisfy them in the same way. There are still several minor producers who have used fermentation until very recently including Gellivare. I have fermented my own snus the old way and also tried Gellivare snus and I can certainly attest to the fact that while not stronger in nicotine than the Swedish Match offerings - they do indeed have both a deeper flavour and seem to give more of a satisfaction akin to smoking a cigarette.

          Maybe the chemicals within the group TSNAs are also active in producing the feelings that WTA liquid manufacturers are aiming for? I don't have any more evidence for that other than my own deductions - but I think it may be likely.

          In which case the chase for ultimate satisfaction from smoking replacements might be a red-herring ... basically it's a choice between hedonistic satisfaction and the risk of cancer ... or proven safer alternatives like modern snus and very low risks.
          Squeezyjohn

          Sometimes wrong and sometimes right .... but ALWAYS certain!!!

          Comment

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