Mars

[justintempler]

We were animals for a hundred thousand years. Then suddenly religion came along and we start developing language, agriculture, art etc. Look at the fossil record, some of the earliest remains show burial rituals , and at the time writing was invented, religion was already fully formed all over the world. Coincidence? I think it played a part in our evolution, and like the apendix it will someday be unnecessary. Untill that day, its here to stay.

Religion developed because man became self aware of his own mortality when he developed the ability to think. He developed the ability to plan ahead and make choices to increase his chances of survival. Creating a god and an afterlife gave him a way to survive and overcome his fear of death.

[sgreger1]

Religion developed because man became self aware of his own mortality when he developed the ability to think. He developed the ability to plan ahead and make choices to increase his chances of survival. Creating a god and an afterlife gave him a way to survive and overcome his fear of death.

My point exactly. It served a valuable purpose, and still may to some extent. Someday it will become like the apendix or male nipples and stop being an evolutionary advantage. It will linger around for a while and eventually fall off.

But so far evolution says now is not the time, and thats all im saying. Plus, war is good for mankind, kreps the numbers down. We **** like rabbits and we don't die easily seeing as nothing eats us. If not for diseas, war would be the only thing that ever thins our numbers. And now with medicine taking out one of the problems, i imagine war will come back in style sometime in the future.


Think about it, i want to see crazy imperial battles like in 300 where 50,000 troops just go face to face. Speaking of which, we need to bring back swords. Dying by the sword seems much cooler and honorable than bullets and bombs.

[justintempler]

sgreger,

You give religion waaaaaaaay too much credit.

Religion is the Great Hijacker Series

I would say being able to face the fear of death gives you a much better chance of survival, knowing what the real risks are. I don't think the Muslim hijackers are enjoying 72 virgins in heaven do you? They're both dead and wrong.

[sgreger1]

Religion developed because man became self aware of his own mortality when he developed the ability to think. He developed the ability to plan ahead and make choices to increase his chances of survival. Creating a god and an afterlife gave him a way to survive and overcome his fear of death.

Also, that is by far the greatest explanation of the origins of religion i have ever heard in my life.

[sgreger1]

sgreger,

You give religion waaaaaaaay too much credit.

Religion is the Great Hijacker Series

I would say being able to face the fear of death gives you a much better chance of survival, knowing what the real risks are. I don't think the Muslim hijackers are enjoying 72 virgins in heaven do you? They're both dead and wrong.

I just watched three of those and that is a great series! Well, aside from the overuse of that picture of some random black guy in pink sunglasses carjacking someone with a sawed off shotgun lol.


But i didnt see that it was really relevant to our conversation as far as giving religion too much credit. The basis of this series is that religion, or more specifically the church/dogma in general have hijacked things and used them to control you. Im not questioning any of that here. Religion is a byproduct of mans belief, his feeling deep inside that there is something else put there that he cant quite undetsand. That some force of some type, obviously superior to him, exists somewhere. Religions call it god, science calls it nature.

That general concept that every man feels was capitalized upon once someone figured out that if they just make up an explanation for why we feel that way, than he surely stands to profit either in power or money. I mean the reason you feel the way you do is because mohammad created you, because you have a soul, because x,y,z.


But i think your right. The root of this deep feeling is that man is self aware. Aware he is mortal, aware of his place as an ant in an endless universe, aware that while he has choices, he is really just one man on an island who must make his own choices. Self awareness is a burden sometimes if you think about it. I never see the dogs go to war or look worried about things. They just kind of coast through life, enjoying the sensory pleasures that it stumbles upon along the way. Scratch his belly, feed him, give him a toy, or don't, because his life is all the same.



Anyways, interesting youtube series.

[Condor]

It boils down to what's right for you. I think some religions are crazy, but I keep it to myself. They probably think Catholicism is crazy. That's why it's my belief system and not theirs. It just makes me a dick and a shitty person to try to force MY views on THEM. "I'm right, you're wrong". Never understood the point of arguing this because it's the most precious personal truth one can have and no amount of perceived logic, insight, or beating your head against a wall will change someone's mind on their core values. You can perhaps come to an (mutual) understanding, but that's about as far as it ever goes.

[WickedKitchen]

My question is, how did some of these religions start. I mean most of the newer ones just copied aspects of older ones, but how did the first religions come into being? I mean, did some guy just make something up one day and tell it to a bunch of people, or did a god come and talk to them and tell them to start it, did they see it in a dream, were they tripping on peote? I wonder how it all started. It seems that the concept of a God or of spirituality/religion in general is woven deeply into the human psyche, and humans are the only animals that seem to have this. Kind of odd, don't you think? Is it because it was an evolutionary trait that developed naturally, or is it something higher. Why is it that most humans, from as far as back the records go, seem to have this feeling that they were created by someone or that there is some higher order to things?


And while I am inclined to say you are right about "societal decay" being the reason for a lot of what we see now, including our "spiritual psychosis", I think it is actually societal evolution moreso than decay. For it to be "decay" it means that it would have had to have been better in the past, which I don't really think it was. Slavery, no womens rights, strict beliefs that you would be killed for if you didn't believe in, a shun on science or free thinking, supreme authorities which cannot be spoken against etc. Are these really the tenants of a society that is superior to ours? We have our own demons now but I think it's just the way the wind blows. With technology allowing us fast travel and communication, information and ideas (memes) spread quicker than ever, and that obviously has a huge cultural impact.

I think it's part of us. Part of our makeup, our brain chemistry. We all have this God-spot in our brain. This notion of a higher power or other "thing(s)" that exist on a different plane than we do can be initiated chemically. Often this happens w/o drugs however our brains are loaded with chemicals that are analogous to some of the psychedelic that might be taken to stimulate this portion of our brains. It's there, and we don't need to take any drugs to get to it. Some people have the ability to access that part of their brain more than others. of course, so are some people able to better communicate things. I think this is how it was born...and it was before we even had record keeping or what have you. Perhaps it was a sacred plant or something that caused people to gather and experience the same sort of thing...a trip maybe. Perhaps it was different people having strkingly similar experiences with or without a drug. Our brains are nearly identical from one human to the next. This is not the same in the animal kingdom from what I read so the fact that people think they're so different yet have amazingly similar visions could be enough to stem a firm belief that there really is something else out there.

Maybe there really is. It could be that our brains were created and that would explain the similarities, but it's an assumption. I, subscribe to the natural selection process personally, but it is entirely possible that there is a "creator". On a side note, if there is a creator, he didn't exactly create a perfect specimen...I mean, we aren't built that robustly in the physical state and I'm not even going to get into the difference between dogs and cats...but I digress...

It's been posted on this thread already. I think that organized religion is harbored because of it's explanations of the unknown. The stories sound good and humans are drawn to hope and visions of "heaven" whatever that might be to you. Besides, isn't it better to believe in something rather than believe in nothing? When those beliefs drive one to control others it then becomes a problem rather than a possible solution. I hope I believe in something when I'm on my deathbed but it is equally possible that when it's over it's over. Kaput. Nothing. Blackness. I believe that my brain might give me a DMT trip at the moment(s) I check out and if it's like I've read about then it will lend itself to exploiting that God center of my brain and if that's the last thing that I experience I surmise I'd go out on a good note.

[jamesstew]

For the last time there is no god:

[justintempler]

... Besides, isn't it better to believe in something rather than believe in nothing? .....

You tell me......
Is human sacrifice to appease the Mayan volcano god better then believing in nothing
Is it better to believe that mental illness is caused by demon possession, or to have no belief on what causes mental illness.
If you believe AIDS is a gay disease then I guess you'd be wasting tax payer dollars testing hetrosexuals, right?

The problem with believing in something, rather that nothing, is when your beliefs are false, you stop looking for the real answers.

I believe in lots of things. I believe in things that can be tested and/or there are evidence for.

It's one thing to acknowledge that there might be a "mind" or a "higher power",
it's something completely different and arrogant to pretend to know the mind of "god" and tell people you know what this "mind" wants.

[WickedKitchen]

I suppose to the Mayans, the sacrifice to the volcano God was a pretty good idea...probably not for the person being sacrificed, but for the rest of them...yeah.

What I meant was to believe that there is some sort of continuance after you die rather than just switching off. I mean, if everyone believed that there was nothing after death, and I mean absolutely nothing then I think our society would become anarchistic. The pleasure of the now would be the rule of the land rather than doing the right thing in some circumstances. That being said, I'm not a believer in the great judgment or anything.

Now, testing things and being able to prove them is all good and well, but we have got to acknowledge that we can only prove them using a set of known truths. This limits the thinking, IMO. An example is I have a good friend that's a doctor of chemistry and he is stuck on the notion that the periodic table of elements is 100% of everything that exists...period...everywhere in the universe. WTF is that? He's got a doctorate for crying out loud and in this context he is incapable of thinking that there might be something yet to discover. The small minds stop looking when they are proven false...finding out that something is wrong should be energizing because then you know...now you can begin to look in another direction and you might discover something great. The problem with belief in religion is that you don't find out until it's too late to do anything about it...or prove it one way or another.

I do agree with your last statement, however, JT. That's the problem with the religion. I wish I could be alive the day humans try to being Christianity or any other religious principles to another settlement of life. Oh the things we might learn. And who's to say that other life out there in space somewhere is far more intelligent than we are? I think so, but maybe that's just optimistic thinking.

Even with religion, take the Amish for example...They're not a bad people, but they believe in things that are not aligned with my thinking. Is it bad for them to believe that electricity is bad? I don't think so. If they expected me to believe it, that would be bad IMO but to them it's all right. It keeps them happy, productive, and peaceful (their beliefs) and even if they can't be proven or are proven wrong they're not forcing their beliefs on others. It might not be good for me, but that doesn't mean that it's not good.

Ok, back to the Mars thing...how do we think the first settlers would deal with religion? Do we think that if/when we encounter other life (intelligent to our standards if it exists) they will subscribe to our beliefs or show us something yet we haven't thought of?

[Roo]

Every society from the dawn of mankind had creation myths. It is part of our self-awareness as humans to question our origins. In many cases, like the Yanomamo or !Kung "bushmen" or aboriginal Australians, such myths have retained their simplicity throughout history. In many other cases, particularly in areas and historical periods where intensified agricultural and animal domestication led to a surplus of sustenance, certain individuals were afforded the time and credibility to expand such creation myths and assume a position of authority over spiritual matters. These creation myths were suddenly capable of becoming much more, and complicated religious dogma resulted.

Furthermore, in most cases (two examples being Rabbis and Brahmins), the religious authority was also responsible for ritual sacrifice, and I mean animals not people (in most cases). Thus these priestly figures assumed a dual role of also being a distributors of meat, basically, and such rituals were used both to worship gods and eat celebratory and lavish feasts. We carry on this tradition today with very large meals on religious holidays with a prayer beforehand. Also with Rabbis and Imams overseeing the slaughter of animals, and the Catholic Priest distributing bread and wine.

So religion, as we know it today, in my mind resulted from intensified agriculture and advanced societies who afforded themselves the ability to designate full-time religious authorities, who expanded and literally re-wrote more primitive creation myths into what we have today. And since religion is life's greatest insurance policy, the idea of heaven and purpose that is, it's not going away any time soon.

[justintempler]

...I mean, if everyone believed that there was nothing after death, and I mean absolutely nothing then I think our society would become anarchistic. The pleasure of the now would be the rule of the land rather than doing the right thing in some circumstances. ?...

I think people would catch on real quick. Sex, Drugs and Rock n' Roll right? There are tons of examples of people that pursued pleasure and ended up ruining their lives. All you have to do is look to the world of celebrities, fame and fortune to see where the pursuit of pleasure leads to. Why would I want to pursue a destructive life of pleasure when the evidence shows it would shorten the only life I have? I'm more worried about the people in this life that seek pleasure that believe if they are really really sorry it doesn't matter what they do because god will forgive them.

I already mentioned earlier in the thread about truth being relative. Everything we know is based on our current knowledge. As new knowledge comes in the truth can change. I'm not worried about your friend with his Phd, there are scientists that spend their whole lives devoted to proving your friend wrong. If they discover a new element to the periodic table they'll be awarded with a Noble prize and your friend will reluctantly have to admit he was wrong.

[truthwolf1]

I think we need a new "Virgin" impregnated by a alien creator presence and then allow that child to grow up and freely tell humanity how to live amongst ourselves and within the greater universe. We can then document everything and tell future generations about how this alien came down and told us how to live and that one day we will all be allowed to enter the greater universe when we are all ready.

[sgreger1]

I think we need a new "Virgin" impregnated by a alien creator presence and then allow that child to grow up and freely tell humanity how to live amongst ourselves and within the greater universe. We can then document everything and tell future generations about how this alien came down and told us how to live and that one day we will all be allowed to enter the greater universe when we are all ready.

Not sure if that was a jesus reference or not. Because if you want to take this discussion in the direction of the virgin marry getting freaky with aliens, i'm ready to go there...

[tom502]

New episode of Ancient Aliens is on tonight.