The Annual Global Warming Flame Thread

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  • sgreger1
    Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 9451

    #1

    The Annual Global Warming Flame Thread

    Climate study showing 2.4 degree temperature increase over 10 years was seriously flawed; only 0.2 degrees should be expected.

    So I guess another paper got through which made the crazy claim that the earth's temp would rise by 2.4 over the next 10 years, peer-reviewers didn't catch it at first. Turns out that only a .2 degree increase is predicted for the next 10 years so they had to retract it. The best quote from the article is:
    "The author of the study was told by several of us about this error but she said it was too late to change it.", so they published it anyways...


    I am all for this type of article - not because I think global warming complete nonesense, but because it's fundamental to science to change theories if conflicting evidence arises.


    The issue is that over the past ten years climate science systematically exaggerated a lot of other estimations - see for instance sea level rise, where IPCC also received a lot of criticism. Some say that such undue alarmism had the good intention of raising awareness about global warming, others are not so indulgent and say that it was just a propaganda machine for getting more funding. Whatever the cause is, in the end of the day what it did was harm the credibility of global warming in the eyes of the public, as polls in the US and now even in Europe are showing.


    That is simply the truth. They have hidden, obfuscated and been knowingly inaccurate. The UEA emails show it, the water levels story (known faulty sensor in HK harbour being the sole source) and so on and on. The failure to publish raw data (rather than summaries) due to 'commercial concerns' and 'intellectual property', the fact that predictive algorithms can't be seen unless you are on a funded team, the fact that plant-life got coded into the predictive models only last year and the fact there's an army of hard scientists saying 'this is not hard science' all give me pause.
    It may all be true, but it's been presented in a very shitty way if it is.


    I think the issue is that climate science is not a hard science in the sense there can be no repeatable experiments with initial conditions. Its an empirical science that needs to rely on models and computer simulations. Models by their very nature are imperfect and quite a few iterations (and frankly, computing power) is needed to make it accurate.

    The conclusions about directions where the climate will move will always be the interesting output from these models. Exact predictions on where the average temperature will move will always be inaccurate simply because its a game of incomplete data, (i.e., you have no idea if the solar output will get worse or a series of volcanos will erupt, etc.)




    Global warming campaigners want to promote what is called positive liberty: forcefully reduce fossil fuel consumption to liberate ourselves from our own internal constraints. The idea is that the lucky few - the vanguard - knows what's best for society. History is full of positive liberty schemes: Jacobins in France (probably the originals), communist revolution in Russia, Kmehr Rouge in Cambodia, Mao Zedong in China, ... . There are two main problems with positive liberty:

    1) a ideal is promoted about the perfect citizens: believes in and accepts the central dogmas, believes and accepts the plans for society and the economy that are presented, is willing to forgive any mistakes that are made along the way. Everybody in society is then expected to live up to that ideal.
    2) positive liberty has to lead to tyranny: there will always be large groups in society that resent and resist the positive liberty ideals. Many people do not want to be told - or worse - which choices they should make. All positive liberty experiments in history have led to tyranny: the reign of terror in France, the cultural revolution in China, USSR and of course the call by the Kmehr Rouge for Combodian intellectuals to return home only to be butchered at the airport.

    Global warming has a long long way to go before it too becomes a historical positive liberty experiment although structures are being built. In the meanwhile it's understandable people don't feel at ease when voicing dissent.





    Another thing to remember is you cannot base everything you believe on one study. The climate change theories are based on patterns in data seen over decades of work where each bit of research built upon other research. Unless you're well read in this domain, you cannot just read a couple of paper abstracts and trump what experts are concluding. Therefore I will not play my usual "Ha! They lied again so obviously all AGW science is fake!" argument today.




    But whether you think climate issues are a big deal, or you believe it's all a hoax, you could all help put it all to rest by checking into things like climateprediction.net via BOINC. not only can you help with this climate stuff, but a bunch of other huge scientific problems as well. it works by using distributed computing, which in itself is really cool. so, stand back, and try science. if BOINC isn't your thing, check out distributed.net or Prime95.
  • ratcheer
    Member
    • Jul 2010
    • 621

    #2
    My gut feeling (non-scientific) is that things are going to be cooling off in the mid-term future (i.e., next 10-20 years).

    Tim

    Comment

    • sgreger1
      Member
      • Mar 2009
      • 9451

      #3
      Originally posted by ratcheer View Post
      My gut feeling (non-scientific) is that things are going to be cooling off in the mid-term future (i.e., next 10-20 years).

      Tim

      I think so too. We are experiencing a bit of a warming trend, but to me that just means a cooling trend is right around the corner. Just because it got hotter in the last 100 years or something doesn't mean it will continue on that trend forever. But it may continue for a long time as far as humans are concerned. Either way, i'll be dead before any of it happens. We had to deal with over-foresting by older cultures, we've had to deal with dwindling supplies of airable land because our ancestors over-used it, and now our grandchildren will just have to adapt to this when the time comes. Technology will be better then and they will find a way around it, that is how it has always happened. If it got drastically warmer and half of the animals on planet earth died, we would still find a way to survive through it, just maybe not with cable tv.

      Comment

      • bipolarbear1968
        Member
        • Mar 2010
        • 1074

        #4
        The US is rapidly headed to becoming carbon neutral, but not as we become more enlightened and learn to conserve and use alternative energies. We will become carbon neutral as we become stuck in neutral. We have regulated and taxed ourselves into a corner. We can't manufactor, we can't use our existing natural resourses, we can't compete globaly. It is only a matter of time before all the money runs out. Then we will be in neutral, but by golly we will not be polluting. Our kids will be begging for foriegn aid from who knows who, probably a polluter.

        Comment

        • toddzilla
          Member
          • Jan 2011
          • 176

          #5
          I took a Global warming class in college. It was problem my favorite class just because I got in huge debates with my professor every class and he would get so pissed haha. Its my personal belief that this is all just one big cycle of the earth. Yes I would agree that it may have been exaggerated due to our increased carbon footprint, but regardless we would have seen a warming trend like we are in now. These cycles have happened before and they are going to keep happening as long as the earth isn't vaporized haha

          Comment

          • snupy
            Member
            • Apr 2009
            • 575

            #6
            Originally posted by sgreger1 View Post
            it's fundamental to science to change theories if conflicting evidence arises..
            An error in one study does not constitute conflicting evidence. Do you seriously believe this one error in this one study overturns the thousands of other studies and thousands of pieces of evidence?

            Comment

            • WickedKitchen
              Member
              • Nov 2009
              • 2528

              #7
              If you can call a small percentage an exaggeration. I don't claim to know how small a percentage but I'd surmise it's minuscule.

              Comment

              • snupy
                Member
                • Apr 2009
                • 575

                #8
                Originally posted by danielan View Post
                I also find it a bit funny, the level of trust people put into these computer climate models... We all understood the enormous problems associated with computer simulations in other areas like the SDI program from the 80's. We understand that tomorrow's weather forecast is at best a good effort. Yet we enthusiastically accept that the climate models are valid - and climate is a LOT harder to model then missile trajectories or weather patterns for 48 hours out given the enormous number of variables involved - we are basically sucky at modeling relatively simple systems - modeling a system as large as the Earth is simply not possible with any degree of accuracy and probably won't be within my lifetime.
                You got that right, particularly given Observed Arctic shrinkage has been faster than that predicted.[82] Precipitation increased proportional to atmospheric humidity, and hence significantly faster than current global climate models predict.[83][84]

                Our climate models are so bad, the effects of global warming are occurring FASTER than our present climate models are able to predict!

                Comment

                • snupy
                  Member
                  • Apr 2009
                  • 575

                  #9
                  Originally posted by danielan View Post
                  That said, rip out all of the coal power plants and replace them with nuclear. Please.
                  I like what the Chinese are doing with pebble bed reactors, which can't melt down. Also, what happened to the nuclear generators the size of a fridge, which could power an entire block? Of course, both of those technologies are probably outdated now. I am all for nuclear myself though.

                  Comment

                  • Jwalker
                    Member
                    • May 2010
                    • 1067

                    #10
                    Yeah nuclear is fine but we need to re-use some of the "waste" I mean right now 1/5 of our power is nuclear. I always get exasperated when people talk about waste disposal because yeah it is an issue but apparently disposing of the millions of tons of coal ash for every pound of uranium isn't . Aside from the CO2, coal ash and air pollution is a serious issue and by the when you scrub a plant it doesn't make the sulfur disappear it just get's concentrated in the coal ash. If we build up the supply of nuclear reactors we'll deplete uranium reserves faster but I'd say we're more likely to find uranium reserves than coal reserves. We'll still need coal so I think we should build some coal gasification plants since they're more efficient but honestly the odds of that happening are about zero.

                    Comment

                    • Jwalker
                      Member
                      • May 2010
                      • 1067

                      #11
                      I'm inclined to believe you immediately, I remember we watched an old movie in elementary school about recycling and they talked about metal and landfill space running out by 1993. I grew up in the mid 90's by the way and the movie wasn't that old. Nuclear power isn't free though you do have to build it which my state did and wasted like 6 billion dollars (real money back then not something congress will probably wake up and decide to spend tommorow) then gave up.

                      Yes I took a course in economics so I understand stuff like the reason people were waiting in line for gas in the 70's wasn't the oil shortage, but price controls and weird regulations on distribution. If they hadn't done that it would be like this time around prices would rise people would cut back on consumption, use it more efficiently, find substitutes and oil that was previously uneconomical to develop would be gone after. I also know that there's a cost benefit analysis to pollution and 20 percent of our 1990 levels (which was the per person level in 1910) or "carbon neutral" whatever that means certainly isn't it unless you believe it's better.

                      Comment

                      • snupy
                        Member
                        • Apr 2009
                        • 575

                        #12
                        http://media.caltech.edu/press_releases/13398

                        Comment

                        • snupy
                          Member
                          • Apr 2009
                          • 575

                          #13
                          Originally posted by danielan View Post
                          Exactly... If you are concerned about global warming and would like to use that as rationale for shifting funds to advanced research or replacing inefficient infrastructure... I'm with you - whether the science is perfect or not.

                          Unfortunately, too many of the "solutions" on the table are to tax me more, raise my gas prices, raise my electricity bill, etc.

                          How do you think we will pay for replacing inefficient infrastructure? It will be no different, I assure you.

                          Comment

                          • sgreger1
                            Member
                            • Mar 2009
                            • 9451

                            #14
                            Originally posted by snupy View Post
                            An error in one study does not constitute conflicting evidence. Do you seriously believe this one error in this one study overturns the thousands of other studies and thousands of pieces of evidence?


                            I specifically said that I do not think this discredits the global warming science at all. It shows how flawed our review process is, but the point was that it got caught, and other scientists immediately called bullshit on the study. This is exactly how science is supposed to work.


                            I am not a denier, I believe in global warming entirely, just I take an entirely different opinion on what it means. AGW in it's current for is, imo, scientists coming to a conclusion before they have all the data. Like I said, we are observing a trend amongst decades worth of climate data, and this needs to be investigated. But it appears as if the entire scientific community has already made their conclusions regarding AGW, and are very reluctant to any kind of criticism, unlike other fields of science which welcome criticism.



                            I think there is plenty of evidence of a trend, but the scientists have been so quick to push their pre-determined conclusion that we keep seing junk science fall through the cracks. We have seen several of their very short term predictions turn out to be incorrect, so that tells me they have not really gotten this down to a science enought to project out 300 years from now. And yet they go to our schools and tell our children that the world will be over in their lifetime. It is irresponsible and it is not science, it is alarmism.




                            Anyways, intention of the post was not to claim that one paper by some nobody disproves the vast amount of research which exists in this field. Merely that the scientific community needs to stop being so god damn intent on PROVING AGW. Research is not about proving that you are right, it is just supposed to be an objective look at the data. I am very worried that the scientific community has not shown the same kind of skepticism with AGW that it normally would, that is all. To me it wreaks of corruption.

                            Comment

                            • sgreger1
                              Member
                              • Mar 2009
                              • 9451

                              #15
                              Originally posted by WickedKitchen View Post
                              If you can call a small percentage an exaggeration. I don't claim to know how small a percentage but I'd surmise it's minuscule.
                              A small percentage? The difference between a .2 rise in temperature over a decade and a 2.4 increase is BIBLICAL. None of us would be having grandchildren if the earth were heating up that fast. The discrepancy is huge.

                              Comment

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