Video smuggled out of N Korea, shows declining state.

[Crow]

Although I'm a leftist (in most aspects) and sympathize with socialist ideals, I would NEVER want to live in North Korea. That's just my 2 cents.

North Korea doesn't practice socialism. It's an authoritarian state with a cultish streak.

The resources (e.g. food) go to the military first (they call it 'Songun', translated as "military-first"). Everyone else gets the crumbs.

[TheOneandOnly]

Juche the state ideology is only socialist in theory... Otherwise workers have no power in N.K.

[shikitohno]

Tom, I can see your not believing the holocaust because you weren't alive so it seems like some tall tale from the past, but there is no evidence to the contrary that N Korea isn't a shithole running gulags and forced labor camps. And every single person who has escaped has the same story to tell. The US really has nothing to do with it.

I think I said something similar not too long ago, either here or on Snuffhouse. Even China, who is one of North Korea's only allies paints a pretty grim picture of life there, and they've nothing to gain by doing so. If it wasn't for his consistency over all these years, I would almost think tom was just trolling us, but I think we can all agree a few unorthodox beliefs are what makes tom the tom we all know. Besides, I've been seeing people give him a hard time for three years or so now about his views on North Korea and other topics, but I can't remember ever seeing tom actually flip out on anyone over it in that entire time, so +1 for tom.

[tom502]

Other's people's beliefs or views don't bother me. I extend to others what I expect extended to me, even if it's not.
That's what tolerance is.
That's why the extreme leftists and anachists are actually intolerant and bigoted, because they believe only their view is right, and they have a right to physically attack you if your view differs from them. Kinda like the so-called "anti-nazi", or "anti-racist" people, they are actually worse than those they claim to be against, and their "world" would be worse than what the west is told of N.Korea.

While N.Korea has it's bad points, it has it's good points too. It has a middle class, and an upper class. Their people are very intelligent, I suspect their children are smarter than those in the US. While the US is filled with murders and rapes, beatings and robberies every day, in every city, and the prisons are overfull, and millions of homeless and jobless, and many people in the US do live in dire poverty. We may not see this, but it's there.

So, while we at our computers might feel pretty good, and maybe "better" than N.Korea, but what about the woman getting raped, or the child molested, or the shop worker getting robbed and shot or the 1000's living under bridges, and the vets begging in the streets... is this a fair price for our percieved freedoms?

I don't know.
But, I do know I'd rather live in N.Korea than:
Afganistan
Somalia
Pakistan
any African nation,
Middle Eastern nation,
Some south Asian nations,
and the high crime cities of the US
France
Germany
England

[sgreger1]

Other's people's beliefs or views don't bother me. I extend to others what I expect extended to me, even if it's not.
That's what tolerance is.
That's why the extreme leftists and anachists are actually intolerant and bigoted, because they believe only their view is right, and they have a right to physically attack you if your view differs from them. Kinda like the so-called "anti-nazi", or "anti-racist" people, they are actually worse than those they claim to be against, and their "world" would be worse than what the west is told of N.Korea.

While N.Korea has it's bad points, it has it's good points too. It has a middle class, and an upper class. Their people are very intelligent, I suspect their children are smarter than those in the US. While the US is filled with murders and rapes, beatings and robberies every day, in every city, and the prisons are overfull, and millions of homeless and jobless, and many people in the US do live in dire poverty. We may not see this, but it's there.

So, while we at our computers might feel pretty good, and maybe "better" than N.Korea, but what about the woman getting raped, or the child molested, or the shop worker getting robbed and shot or the 1000's living under bridges, and the vets begging in the streets... is this a fair price for our percieved freedoms?

I don't know.
But, I do know I'd rather live in N.Korea than:
Afganistan
Somalia
Pakistan
any African nation,
Middle Eastern nation,
Some south Asian nations,
and the high crime cities of the US
France
Germany
England

"It has a middle class, and an upper class"

- It has inner party members and everyone else. Those who eat and those who don't. I would hardly refer to it as a middle class, at least by US standards. Middle class here means you at a minimum get to eat 3 meals a day. Hell, even our poor get 3 meals a day plus a check from the government+food stamps, in N Korea you get no such thing.


"Their people are very intelligent, I suspect their children are smarter than those in the US. "

- This depends on how you guage intelligence. They do have one of the hgihest literacy rates in the world, 99%, so I will give you this one. Though I would argue that as a whole, Americans are educated toa higher degree which is why more innovation comes from America than from N Korea. But our literacy rate is attrocious, so I suppose it's all about how you guage it. I will give you the education one, America's education system is nothing to brag about for sure.


"The US is filled with murders and rapes, beatings and robberies every day, in every city"

- Not every city. In a country of over 300 million people though there is bound to be some crime, some places are worse than others. Where I live we don't lock our doors and don't chain up our bicycles, crime is almost non-existant here, but if you drive an hour away it's the ghetto. But I think that can be said about most countries, they have good and bad areas.


"and the prisons are overfull"

-Yes, they are, but again our prisons are like luxury camps compared to the re-education camps of N Korea. Show trials can get anyone put into a forced labor camp for doing even the slightest thing wrong, or dissenting in any way. At least the court system in the US is better, and once incarcerated, you still get 3 meals a day and a chance of getting out.

"millions of homeless and jobless"

- No korea is the same, most people live in famine. Here a homeless person makes more than any alleged middle class does in N Korea, they can eat 3 meals a day, get a check from the government +food stamps, and have the freedom to do as they wish. Our bums here can panhandle and make more in a day than a N Korean family can in a month.


"and many people in the US do live in dire poverty."

-This is true, but not any more than any other country. Even our poor get food assistance and a check in the mail, low-income housing etc. It certainly could be worse, definately not comparable to somewhere like N Korea.



"So, while we at our computers might feel pretty good, and maybe "better" than N.Korea, but what about the woman getting raped, or the child molested, or the shop worker getting robbed and shot or the 1000's living under bridges, and the vets begging in the streets... is this a fair price for our percieved freedoms?"

- But they have all those same things, just it's government sponsored, and the police or senior party members can abuse people at will without reprocution. At least here we have some level of freedom to go along with it. Don't think that robberies, rape etc are strictly American phenomena, those things exist everywhere.



EDIT: An they have internment camps for political prisoners, and forced labor camps as well. 40% die of starvation, all are tortured, most never leave. The comments you make on this forum would land you in a concentration camp, do you view that as better than the US?


Slave labor, torture, no free speech, overbearing authoritarian government. And you say this place is better than England?

[justintempler]

If you want to understand how people like Kim Jong-il hold on to power in States like North Korea, I highly recommend listening to a podcast entitled "The Political Economy of Power" It is an 1h 28m long but well worth a listen.

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/200...litical_e.html

There is an archive of weekly podcasts going back to 2006, all available for free on that website.

[Crow]

If you liked the first video, I have one more treat for you.

It's another documentary... This one is about an American (Joseph Dresnok) defecting to North Korea.

[sgreger1]

If you want to understand how people like Kim Jong-il hold on to power in States like North Korea, I highly recommend listening to a podcast entitled "The Political Economy of Power" It is an 1h 28m long but well worth a listen.

http://www.econtalk.org/archives/200...litical_e.html

There is an archive of weekly podcasts going back to 2006, all available for free on that website.

Wow, I'm about 3 quarters through this podcast and I am a fan. This guy being interviewed is making such outstanding points, especially his argument against foreign aid. I wish school history and economic classes had content like like this and talks from economists and historians instaed of the dry materal they give. Everyone should understand how these things work and why things are the way they are, why leaders act the way they do. There is a method to the madness, a formula by which they use to stay in power, and it's pretty uniform across the board.

Everyone with an hour to burn should listen to this podcast, definately an interesting subject. A no bs view of how things work.