So, October is my deadline for National Guard (or?) enlistment.

[jmdkodiak]

So, I made a pact with myself at the beginning of the year that I would give myself through summer to find a better job, or further my education, or, something. Some sort of opportunity, which has fleeted me. Still in the same dead end job, making peanuts. So it's time to do something.

I have my EMT-B license and I decided to join National Guard as 68W come October if nothing else panned out for me. Had a few interviews and whatnot, but nothing has come of anything.

So, here we go. October is getting closer and I am thinking this looks like the best option for me. I'd like to do my paramedic but I haven't necessarily ran into the $6,000 required to do it. I suppose I'd like some advice, stories, etc. I'm not really scared of it, in fact I look forward to it! Even being deployed. But of course it's a life changing thing. I decided to do National Guard because I can choose where I live, if I chose to move to another state in the future. Or conversely, I could volunteer for active duty with whoever is going somewhere if I so chose to do so. It would be a great experience for me as well to gain knowledge and experience. I think National Guard still gives you the GI bill and stuff too so that's a plus, also, but not the sole reason for me to join. I know army has 68W as well, though. I guess I don't know the difference between National Guard or Army (or is it Army Reserve? who knows..)

So, lets hear it.

[lxskllr]

I don't have anything relevant to give you, but I kind of regret not going into the Coast Guard. It wasn't something I ever considered when I was younger, but in retrospect, I think it would have been a good career for me.

[jmdkodiak]

I don't have anything relevant to give you, but I kind of regret not going into the Coast Guard. It wasn't something I ever considered when I was younger, but in retrospect, I think it would have been a good career for me.

I would do Coast Guard if I could. But I don't have perfect color vision, and I also have tattoos. Which the Coast Guard doesn't like. I suppose they can afford to be picky.

[sgreger1]

Well this is really a question of what exactly you want to gain from the experience. National guard is essentially a part time gig, but you will likely deploy at some point during your enlistment. Active duty is going to be a full time job but they are going to ship you wherever the army needs you, but you'll get unlimited free food, housing, decent pay etc. 68W's don't get promoted super quick last I checked but you should be able to get up to specialist (E4) at least within the first few years.

68W is a good job, I had a lot of friends who were medics back when I was in, but it won't turn you into a paramedic when you get home, your army training will be seen as a good thing but you will still have to go through the regular training programs once your back in the civilian world, as the way they do things is a little different in the army.


I would hesitate to advise someone to join the military just because they couldn't find a good job though(at least not active duty), as there is a lot more that comes with being an active duty soldier than just having a steady job. It will be a lot of work and won't really get much easier for the first few years. It all depends what unit you get assigned to though, some are super chill and some are less chill.


All in all, my opinion is that if you are going to do the army thing (of which the national guard is a part of), might as well go active duty. You get the whole experience and get to do some cool shit (plus steady pay, infinite food for free, housing etc). To be honest national guard/reserves are seen as lazy shitbags by most active duty (because it's true). There's a big difference between showing up at a reserve post a few times a month and working 12 hour days / sleeping in the field without taking a shower for months at a time.


But the national guard will be more flexible, and you still get the Tri-care (health insurance),GI bill, bonus etc. If you don't want to move around at the whim of the state, National guard. If you don't mind moving around a little, than active duty.


EDIT: The National Guard is like the reserves, but it is controlled by the state. They are often times dispatched to handle natural disasters and such, but can be called on by the feds during time of war. The way it rests now is that the feds pretty much just treat them as another reserve unit and deploy them like they do everyone else. The lines between reserves and the national guard are thin and grey.

[remanifest]

As a recent veteran, I would absolutely not recommend joining the military right now. It is not what you think it is. The missions you may currently think about are not what you imagine them to be.

For the record, I have received very high personal honors and recommendations from all of my previous commanders. I have an honorable discharge, and zero disciplinary marks on my record. I was a mentor, and someone who was held in high esteem. I also still hold my security clearance (the level of which is not necessary here).

Look these things up: Operation Northwoods, Operation Gladio, Gulf of Tonkin, USS Liberty, Project SHAD, Iran-Contra, Pat Tillman. This should get you started. All of these things are declassified, and there are a few others I'm personally aware of that are currently classified. I am not at liberty to discuss them, but the above named projects should be enough to get you thinking.

[dpete]

As a recent veteran, I would absolutely not recommend joining the military right now. It is not what you think it is. The missions you may currently think about are not what you imagine them to be.

For the record, I have received very high personal honors and recommendations from all of my previous commanders. I have an honorable discharge, and zero disciplinary marks on my record. I was a mentor, and someone who was held in high esteem. I also still hold my security clearance (the level of which is not necessary here).

Look these things up: Operation Northwoods, Operation Gladio, Gulf of Tonkin, USS Liberty, Project SHAD, Iran-Contra, Pat Tillman. This should get you started. All of these things are declassified, and there are a few others I'm personally aware of that are currently classified. I am not at liberty to discuss them, but the above named projects should be enough to get you thinking.

Welcome to the forum remanifest. I think your advice is spot on. While he is a bit dated I would also suggest looking up General Smedley Butler. The only person to have been awarded the Medal of Honor twice, Gen. Butler had a few things to say that this generation should listen to.

[remanifest]

Welcome to the forum remanifest. I think your advice is spot on. While he is a bit dated I would also suggest looking up General Smedley Butler. The only person to have been awarded the Medal of Honor twice, Gen. Butler had a few things to say that this generation should listen to.

Thank you for your kind welcome dpete.

I concer, General Smedley Butler is indeed worth looking into. President Eisenhower's January 17, 1961 farewell address is also littered with truths worthy of consideration.

For an academic (historical) study, Norman Dixon wrote a book entitled On The Psychology of Military Incompetence (my copy is dated 1976). It is a book written by a former British military officer (Engineer Corps), detailing why -- and how -- many of the most inane military decisions come from the top-down. This sort of reading is important to do if one is to take a logical (thoughtful) approach to their decisions.

I am not sure to whom this quote should be attributed, but it's pretty famous, and worthy of consideration:

The truth is often avoided because it is ugly and unpleasant. Never appeal to truth and reality unless you are prepared for the anger that comes for disenchantment. Life is so harsh and distressing that people who can manufacture romance or conjure up fantasy are like oases in the desert: Everyone flocks to them. There is great power in tapping into the fantasies of the masses.

All the above being said, the choice is, of course, yours alone. Do what you feel is right. Informed people tend to make the best decisions.

[Xobeloot]

I'm a 68w active. will be 1 year in active duty in a couple weeks. Here is my advice:

Stay Nasty Girl... err... National Guard, but get them to add the M6 identifier. You'll go through whiskey school for 4 months (actually, you could probably fast-track whiskey to about 2 months since you are already EMT-B and the 1st half is simply B certification), then get an additional year+ to become a LPN (all training done at Ft. Sam Houston which is f'n AWESOME!). Once that is done, you'll be a 68WM6, will probably be damn close to E-5 rank, and will then be set free with 50k worth of MGIB money to get your EMT-P, all the while you'l already be LPN and will have 100000000000000001 healthcare employers begging for your services.

[sgreger1]

As a recent veteran, I would absolutely not recommend joining the military right now. It is not what you think it is. The missions you may currently think about are not what you imagine them to be.

For the record, I have received very high personal honors and recommendations from all of my previous commanders. I have an honorable discharge, and zero disciplinary marks on my record. I was a mentor, and someone who was held in high esteem. I also still hold my security clearance (the level of which is not necessary here).

Look these things up: Operation Northwoods, Operation Gladio, Gulf of Tonkin, USS Liberty, Project SHAD, Iran-Contra, Pat Tillman. This should get you started. All of these things are declassified, and there are a few others I'm personally aware of that are currently classified. I am not at liberty to discuss them, but the above named projects should be enough to get you thinking.

Lol, i'm sorry but i'm going to have to call BS. I am well aware of all of the items you mention but to say that "they are classified" and then allude to the fact that you know something special because of your "Security clearance" sets off a giant red flag for me. What unit were you in, and what was your MOS?


I agree joining the army isn't something I would probably do right now, mainly because it's boring as **** and you end up just sitting in a desert going on patrols and playing cop. 68W's a good gig though, one of the better army jobs if you ask me. Shady shit is kind of just something that goes along with the job, but usually you just end up in a normal unit and it's pretty much just boring grunt work the whole time. Could be worse I suppose, being unemployed seems like it would suck pretty bad.



My brother is apparently about to go on his 6th deployment now. I can't even believe it, how do they expect one man to weather 6 years out of country, it just seems like a bad plan to be re-deploying the same soldiers over and over again. I'm glad I got out when I did.

[remanifest]

Lol, i'm sorry but i'm going to have to call BS. I am well aware of all of the items you mention but to say that "they are classified" and then allude to the fact that you know something special because of your "Security clearance" sets off a giant red flag for me. What unit were you in, and what was your MOS?


I agree joining the army isn't something I would probably do right now, mainly because it's boring as **** and you end up just sitting in a desert going on patrols and playing cop. 68W's a good gig though, one of the better army jobs if you ask me. Shady shit is kind of just something that goes along with the job, but usually you just end up in a normal unit and it's pretty much just boring grunt work the whole time. Could be worse I suppose, being unemployed seems like it would suck pretty bad.



My brother is apparently about to go on his 6th deployment now. I can't even believe it, how do they expect one man to weather 6 years out of country, it just seems like a bad plan to be re-deploying the same soldiers over and over again. I'm glad I got out when I did.

While I understand your concerns, I would recommend reading what I wrote a little more clearly. The items I mentioned are declassified, and were stated as such initially. Your attempted ad hominem attacks do not dissuade the points I've made.

While I appreciate your questioning of the legitimacy of my service -- I'm going to defer to something we were taught when I was just coming into the service -- don't give unnecessary information about yourself, unless there is something you need from that person, and the information being requested of you is necessary for you to obtain that which you seek.

In other words, I want nothing from you, so you'll get no validation from me on a public forum.

[Xobeloot]

All that being said, I suggest re-reading my suggestion which clearly answers the original poster.

[sgreger1]

While I understand your concerns, I would recommend reading what I wrote a little more clearly. The items I mentioned are declassified, and were stated as such initially. Your attempted ad hominem attacks do not dissuade the points I've made.

While I appreciate your questioning of the legitimacy of my service -- I'm going to defer to something we were taught when I was just coming into the service -- don't give unnecessary information about yourself, unless there is something you need from that person, and the information being requested of you is necessary for you to obtain that which you seek.

In other words, I want nothing from you, so you'll get no validation from me on a public forum.

Oh i'm not questioning the legitimacy of your service at all. Just your comments re: "I know super classified stuff that I am not at liberty to say". If you didn't want to discuss it than you should not be posting about it in a public forum, OPSEC and all, right?


"Operation Northwoods, Operation Gladio, Gulf of Tonkin, USS Liberty, Project SHAD, Iran-Contra, Pat Tillman"

All very interesting topics but not something that should dissuade anyone from joining the military. 68W's won't be involved in any of those types of events anyways so not something he needs to worry about. Pat Tilman got shot by friendly fire, which was embarrasing because he was part of a ranger battalion and so they therefore tried to cover it up so as not to put a stain on the elite record of said unit, but what does this have to do with OP wanting to join the National Guard as a medic?

[remanifest]

Oh i'm not questioning the legitimacy of your service at all. Just your comments re: "I know super classified stuff that I am not at liberty to say". If you didn't want to discuss it than you should not be posting about it in a public forum, OPSEC and all, right?


"Operation Northwoods, Operation Gladio, Gulf of Tonkin, USS Liberty, Project SHAD, Iran-Contra, Pat Tillman"

All very interesting topics but not something that should dissuade anyone from joining the military. 68W's won't be involved in any of those types of events anyways so not something he needs to worry about. Pat Tilman got shot by friendly fire, which was embarrasing because he was part of a ranger battalion and so they therefore tried to cover it up so as not to put a stain on the elite record of said unit, but what does this have to do with OP wanting to join the National Guard as a medic?

If you're going to quote someone, make sure you're quoting them exactly. You've again reduced yourself to an ad hominem attack. The notion that you did not question the legitimacy of my service is laughable. If not, what difference would the unit I was a member of make? I did not discuss anything classified. Again, all of what I mentioned was declassified. I added in my knowledge of other classified projects along the same lines, as if to say "that's not all". It has nothing to do with OPSEC or blowing my own horn. Your continued assaults on my credibility are troubling, as you've attempted to redirect the thread toward a me-and-you situation. Please stop.

68W's are just as involved as any service member would be. It is too simple to say, "Oh, the MOS doesn't fit these crimes. Just the spooks got hit by these tests, trolololol." The fact of the matter is that every service member, regardless of rank or MOS, is part of a machine that will use them to enact its will. Why do you think SECDEF and all the 4 star generals at Pat Tillman's Congressional Inquiry simply shut their mouths and claimed ignorance, even when there was a TS P4 memo with their names on it? Because their culpability was obvious, and it was politically prudent for them to do so in that instance. If you don't think they'd roll over anyone else, just as they rolled over the only Enlisted soldier that I'm aware of to ever get a personal letter from the Secretary of Defense upon his enlistment, you're choosing to believe in untruths. The notion that they covered up what happened to Pat Tillman to protect the "elite record" of the Ranger unit is an elementary argument at best. Most people have no idea what Rangers do, nor do they know about the "elite records" of the various units. The cover-up was a publicity stunt to try to rally Americans around a would-be war hero who died trying to protect us from "20 or more" Taliban -- you know, those spooky guys who wear turbans and have beards. It was a lie; the soldier with Pat Tillman gave his account, and he was literally next to him when Pat's head was blown off.

The legitimacy of all of the operations/projects above named is that they show a propensity to disregard the value of life when there is a political statement to be made. The United States has, can, and will, attack our own nation if it makes sense to do so. They will use the U.S. Military to carry out these attacks. Most of those involved in these attacks will be ignorant as to their position within the operation, or whether they had an impact at all (compartmentalization). In such cases, there are no screenings for MOS, religion, background, sexual orientation, or whether you were a good or a bad solider. If you're in the cross-hairs, so be it. Soldiers are nothing more than pawns to those who would control them (see the above operations and projects), but if people want to delude themselves to believe otherwise in the face of overwhelming evidence, I suppose that is acceptable to me, troubling though it may be.

It is because I have a great love and respect for those who have served and continue to serve that I feel it is necessary to inform them, at least, of the atrocities committed in their names and with their blood. It is unjust, it is sickening, and it is abundantly obvious to anyone who takes the time to simply read the documents that are already declassified. To say they're "interesting" shows a level of concern that one would generally show to facts concerning geological formations, or dinosaur bones -- certainly not something that directly affects those whom one claims to hold in high regard.

Anyhow, it has been interesting indeed to exchange with you in this minor debate, but this will be all for me on this matter. If you still cannot see the points I have raised, we will have to agree to disagree on these matters.

[sgreger1]

If you're going to quote someone, make sure you're quoting them exactly. You've again reduced yourself to an ad hominem attack. The notion that you did not question the legitimacy of my service is laughable. If not, what difference would the unit I was a member of make? I did not discuss anything classified. Again, all of what I mentioned was declassified. I added in my knowledge of other classified projects along the same lines, as if to say "that's not all". It has nothing to do with OPSEC or blowing my own horn. Your continued assaults on my credibility are troubling, as you've attempted to redirect the thread toward a me-and-you situation. Please stop.

68W's are just as involved as any service member would be. It is too simple to say, "Oh, the MOS doesn't fit these crimes. Just the spooks got hit by these tests, trolololol." The fact of the matter is that every service member, regardless of rank or MOS, is part of a machine that will use them to enact its will. Why do you think SECDEF and all the 4 star generals at Pat Tillman's Congressional Inquiry simply shut their mouths and claimed ignorance, even when there was a TS P4 memo with their names on it? Because their culpability was obvious, and it was politically prudent for them to do so in that instance. If you don't think they'd roll over anyone else, just as they rolled over the only Enlisted soldier that I'm aware of to ever get a personal letter from the Secretary of Defense upon his enlistment, you're choosing to believe in untruths. The notion that they covered up what happened to Pat Tillman to protect the "elite record" of the Ranger unit is an elementary argument at best. Most people have no idea what Rangers do, nor do they know about the "elite records" of the various units. The cover-up was a publicity stunt to try to rally Americans around a would-be war hero who died trying to protect us from "20 or more" Taliban -- you know, those spooky guys who wear turbans and have beards. It was a lie; the soldier with Pat Tillman gave his account, and he was literally next to him when Pat's head was blown off.

The legitimacy of all of the operations/projects above named is that they show a propensity to disregard the value of life when there is a political statement to be made. The United States has, can, and will, attack our own nation if it makes sense to do so. They will use the U.S. Military to carry out these attacks. Most of those involved in these attacks will be ignorant as to their position within the operation, or whether they had an impact at all (compartmentalization). In such cases, there are no screenings for MOS, religion, background, sexual orientation, or whether you were a good or a bad solider. If you're in the cross-hairs, so be it. Soldiers are nothing more than pawns to those who would control them (see the above operations and projects), but if people want to delude themselves to believe otherwise in the face of overwhelming evidence, I suppose that is acceptable to me, troubling though it may be.

It is because I have a great love and respect for those who have served and continue to serve that I feel it is necessary to inform them, at least, of the atrocities committed in their names and with their blood. It is unjust, it is sickening, and it is abundantly obvious to anyone who takes the time to simply read the documents that are already declassified. To say they're "interesting" shows a level of concern that one would generally show to facts concerning geological formations, or dinosaur bones -- certainly not something that directly affects those whom one claims to hold in high regard.

Anyhow, it has been interesting indeed to exchange with you in this minor debate, but this will be all for me on this matter. If you still cannot see the points I have raised, we will have to agree to disagree on these matters.

I suppose you are relatively new here so you don't know that I am of the same opinion as you and I didn't mean to imply that I was not, I am well aware about all of the DECLASSIFIED (since you keep reiterating that) items you listed and they are all instances of the horrible abuse of power that is the military industrial complex. And you are correct that every soldier is a cog in the wheel of this machine and MOS doesn't really matter since everyone plays their part in one way or another. Additionally, I am in agreeance with you about Pat Tilman, you and I are saying the same thing in that he was hailed as this hero for joining the army, so the gov exploited his previous sports celebrity status to advertise for the military, but then the dude gets killed by friendly fire (in a ranger battalion no less), so they had to cover it up both to protect the "elite" image the rangers try to maintain (though I would beg to differ regarding their eliteness) and also they tried to explain away his death as something that it wasn't so that they wouldn't look stupid.

I am well aware of all of the things you speak of and I completely agree that every soldier should know that they are part of this machine which is routinely used for evil. But the same can be said about someone who works for a bank or some big corporation, the institution itself tends to do bad things but I can't always blame the guys who are just working their and doing their job. The army is just another job.


What I DID say however was that I call bs in regards to how you presented yourself, I don't see how you could say you weren't trying to toot your own horn when you make a statement like this:

It has nothing to do with OPSEC or blowing my own horn

[horn blowing]
For the record, I have received very high personal honors and recommendations from all of my previous commanders. I have an honorable discharge, and zero disciplinary marks on my record. I was a mentor, and someone who was held in high esteem. I also still hold my security clearance (the level of which is not necessary here).
There are a few others I'm personally aware of that are currently classified. I am not at liberty to discuss them, but the above named projects should be enough to get you thinking. [/horn blowing]

In my experience people who genuinely know any kind of relevant classified data don't generally go around talking like that, but perhaps I am mistaken.


Anyways, didn't mean to get into a debate, I completely agree with you on all your points regarding the military. Back to the topic at hand.

[Xobeloot]

When you boys are finished arguing, would one of you please take the groceries out of the car. THANKS!



As for the topic at hand. Myself and OP already had a nice discussion via PM Re: his question rather than a military history lesson.