So the wife wants a new laptop.....

[lxskllr]

Or............you could just lean the screen over the key pad a bit when you type so you can see the keys......


but if ya'll want to go all Dr. Frankenstein on your stuff...........go ahead

That's usually what I do, but I use dark theming on everything, from my desktop, to web pages. Sometimes it's still hard to see with the lip tipped down :^D

[Premium Parrots]

90% of the time when I'm on the computer its night and I'm on my back servicing women and the keys are difficult to see.


Its true except the servicing part. My spine is ****ed up and I'm horizontal a lot of the time. So I actually have a tummytop computer. Again, the keys are hard to see even with a lighted keyboard. But its a hell of a lot better when they are lighted.






I found out a long time ago I had better not touch the computer when servicing the wife.....she got really pissed.

[Thraxy]

Or............you could just lean the screen over the key pad a bit when you type so you can see the keys......


but if ya'll want to go all Dr. Frankenstein on your stuff...........go ahead

Or... learn to touch type. That's what I did

[CoderGuy]

I am an Apple fan but also a gamer, so my MBP sits in my drawer while my gaming laptop gets all the use.

Anyway, you could always try one of these options for keyboard lighting:

http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=keyboard+lamp&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=4384463355&ref=pd_sl_67ujlxzsp4_b

[internope]

Most of the arguments made in favour of Macs really just make it sound like Mac users are capable of little more than drooling and pounding the keyboard. I'm still trying to figure out why they make themselves look so bad. "Oh, well it's just too hard for me to install an anti-virus programme and click the updates every so often. I know I could just set it to update itself automatically, but honestly, who has the five minutes it takes to google for instructions to find out how to do it, and then follow them?" Then again, I like being able to tinker with things, and find the whole Mac GUI to be clunky and tiresome to use. To each his own, I guess.

Your AV program is only as good as the virus signature database, and these signature databases lag behind the latest in-the-wild viruses, sometimes by only a few hours, but often by days. It is impossible to stay ahead of the bad guys. Read any of the malware forums and you will see that Windows users with both current AV and separate anti-malware protection are still getting infected on a regular basis. It is so bad that many Windows users are just resigned to the fact that they will fall victim to some kind of security breach once or twice per year and have to re-install Windows if they want to be sure they have actually cleaned the system.

If you really think that Mac users are drooling morons maybe you should visit any computer security conference and take a look around the room. The MacBook Pro is the overwhelming favorite among computer professionals that have a choice. You get the time-tested stability, security, and power of UNIX combined with a well-integrated GUI on the OS side, and impeccable design, top-notch engineering, and stringent quality control on the hardware side.

I'll say it again: The MacBook Pro is like an Icetool - machined from a solid piece of aluminum, a pleasure to use and will last for years. Windows laptops are like Prismasters - an inexpensive plastic tool that will sort of work for awhile as long as you can put up with the quirks and design flaws. To take it a step further, Linux on the laptop is like handbaking - costs nothing and requires more learning, but offers the most flexibility and is generally just as convenient as the Icetool once you get enough experience.

[Frosted]

For sure PC's get attacked on a regular basis, but my anti-virus has blocked every single one of them.
If you're a bog standard person that uses a computer for bog standard reasons like me - get a run of the mill PC.

I had a Mac - I hated the bloody thing.

[internope]

For sure PC's get attacked on a regular basis, but my anti-virus has blocked every single one of them.

Sure, it blocked every virus/malware that it knew about. Unless you are watching your processes and network connections you might not know about an infection until it was too late.

There is some very scary malware out there. Would you know if a process was quietly running in the background collecting your keystrokes when you login to sites and sending it off to a remote bot running on a compromised pc somewhere?

[Frosted]

Sure, it blocked every virus/malware that it knew about. Unless you are watching your processes and network connections you might not know about an infection until it was too late.

There is some very scary malware out there. Would you know if a process was quietly running in the background collecting your keystrokes when you login to sites and sending it off to a remote bot running on a compromised pc somewhere?

If I had things on my computer that required security, yeah, I'd probably worry about it. But I don't. I'm bog standard Joe Bloggs that uses his PC for keeping photos, word processing and browsing the internet which hardly requires expert security. If anybody was recording that - good luck to them. They'll sleep well.

[shikitohno]

Your AV program is only as good as the virus signature database, and these signature databases lag behind the latest in-the-wild viruses, sometimes by only a few hours, but often by days. It is impossible to stay ahead of the bad guys. Read any of the malware forums and you will see that Windows users with both current AV and separate anti-malware protection are still getting infected on a regular basis. It is so bad that many Windows users are just resigned to the fact that they will fall victim to some kind of security breach once or twice per year and have to re-install Windows if they want to be sure they have actually cleaned the system.

If you really think that Mac users are drooling morons maybe you should visit any computer security conference and take a look around the room. The MacBook Pro is the overwhelming favorite among computer professionals that have a choice. You get the time-tested stability, security, and power of UNIX combined with a well-integrated GUI on the OS side, and impeccable design, top-notch engineering, and stringent quality control on the hardware side.

I'll say it again: The MacBook Pro is like an Icetool - machined from a solid piece of aluminum, a pleasure to use and will last for years. Windows laptops are like Prismasters - an inexpensive plastic tool that will sort of work for awhile as long as you can put up with the quirks and design flaws. To take it a step further, Linux on the laptop is like handbaking - costs nothing and requires more learning, but offers the most flexibility and is generally just as convenient as the Icetool once you get enough experience.

I didn't say that they are drooling morons, I said they make themselves sound like it. I've ran Windows for years on my computers, and have yet to have any sort of serious viruses in over a decade of use. Honestly, all I'm saying is that Mac fans vastly overrate the superiority of their own software, and massively underrate the Windows OS. Windows is not a great operating system. Mac is absolutely terrible, as far as I'm concerned, though. Yes, you won't get viruses often. Well that's lovely, My desktop won't get viruses running Arch linux, and I don't have to pay hundreds of dollars more for a crappier machine. Mac fans do have to face up to the fact sooner or later, you pay more money for poorer hardware. Your computer is going to become obsolete sooner, and cost more initially. I'll say it, the Mac Book Pro is like a diamond encrusted prismaster. Its fanciest features are completely functionally useless with the exception of a few professions, but it looks pretty and costs a ton of money, so people assume it has to be good. If your primary concern is security, take a weekend to learn how to run your computer properly, and put a linux distro on it, then. You'll get all the benefits of Mac OSes, without that god awful GUI they use, and you don't have to spend $400 or more for a computer than you would if you were shopping pcs based solely on hardware. Also, I don't know where you get that bit about it being a favourite amongst computer professionals. I've worked IT, and most IT guys hate Apple as much as they hate Windows. They'd rather just use a real unix system and not have to worry about the headache and expense of dealing with endless proprietary software. The only time I've seen an IT office insist they needed a Mac was when the company was deploying a bunch of Macs throughout it's campuses, and IT figured it would be easier to control them from a Mac than to try and get it working perfectly with their linux equipment or Windows gear.

Their top-notch engineering really just hurts you as a consumer. That solid external case won't help you a damn bit if I punt your MacBook Pro off a pier into the Atlantic, but it'll sure as hell make it much more difficult for you to fix things, if for example, you don't have time to wait for Apple to sit around and fix it and you know that you just need to replace the RAM or something. As for stringent hardware controls, for the price point, Mac hardware is vastly inferior to a comparable desktop or laptop. If you really love OS X or Lion, save yourself some wasted money, do a bit of research and just build a hackintosh.

There is some very scary malware out there. Would you know if a process was quietly running in the background collecting your keystrokes when you login to sites and sending it off to a remote bot running on a compromised pc somewhere?

Actually, yes, it's not that hard to see if there's a keylogger running in the background. Sure, it might not open another window, but Task Manager on Windows lists processes, and atop will do the same for Linux. When I see unfamiliar processes running, I google them to find out what they are. It's not nearly as difficult to deal with viruses as Mac fans seem to think. Don't download porn, don't install random programs from people/companies you don't know, don't play facebook games. If you want to torrent movies and music, find a reputable tracker that's known for banning people who upload virus-laden files. Windows could solve a good deal of their problems with viruses if Microsoft simply included a more robust permissions system, which is bound to happen eventually.

[devilock76]

Ahem, Linux. But aside from that a Mac can and will get virii. It is just rarer as the core of it is *nix based and therein lies it's strength. You should consider a refurb mac. I have heard glowing testimony on apple refurb products.

Ken

[shikitohno]

Ahem, Linux. But aside from that a Mac can and will get virii. It is just rarer as the core of it is *nix based and therein lies it's strength. You should consider a refurb mac. I have heard glowing testimony on apple refurb products.

Ken

How's the customer support on refurb ones? Customer support is where Apple really excels, lately, as far as polls show. A refurbished computer could work nicely for PP's wife. Also, PP, what exactly are you planning on using this new laptop for? Despite what your Mac fanboys or Dell reps may tell you, you might not really need a very good laptop that'll run you tons of money. If your wife just listens to music and browses the internet on her laptop, a dual-core processor at around 2.2GHz with 6-8GB of RAM could likely fit her needs. If she wants to watch HD video, you'll want something with an appropriate graphics card. Hell, if internet, movies, and music is all she'll do with it, you could probably get by fine with a $300 netbook, and still have it remain functional for several years. A lot of people don't seem to consider what a computer is going to be used for before they shout out, "Oh buy a Mac!" "Shut up Macfag, he wants Windows." "Screw both of you, he should get Linux." Similarly, no one seems to give consideration to the notion that if you're only doing a couple simple things, springing for a powerhouse of a computer is kind of silly. Is the new laptop going to be used for anything particularly intense, like playing games, doing heavy audio/visual editing, compiling a lot of software, or regularly running a large number of programs at once? If you can say yes to one of those things, it makes sense for you to aim high with this. If not, you can probably go for a $500-$650 laptop and be more than adequately satisfied with it. Also, does you wife really take advantage of a laptop's portability on a regular basis? If she's using it in the same part of the house 90% of the time, you can likely just get a desktop for her. At around the same cost, they're typically more powerful than laptops in the same price range. It's worth stopping to consider how you'll be using it before you buy it.

[Roo]

Some people say that time is money. Some people don't want to "take a weekend" to figure out how to use a product they don't even like in order to save a few hundred bucks on something they plan to use for years. Some people don't utilize enough features of their computer to ever "wait for Mac to fix" something. Fix what? I buy a Mac every 4 to 5 years, during which time I literally don't pay for shit else. My last macbook pro was $1200. If I continue to use it for 4 years, which I will, that is $300 per year, less than $1 per day. The "price" argument is weak imo. I'm just offering a different perspective to represent those of us who are neither drooling morons, nor do we do much with our computers beyond internet, music, photos, and spreadsheets. Nor do we spend a weekend learning how to protect the damn thing from total annihilation, nor worry about setting up programs properly and running the latest protection software... we turn it on and use it, as is, for years... all for less than $1 per day. This is also my philosophy with cars. I buy a very reliable car (Civic) for $18,000 and drive it for 10 years, during which time repairs and hassles are at an absolute minimum. Then I get a new one. I'm not saying this is the best way to do it, just offering an extension of the philosophy. It's perfectly fine that some people prefer to spend less money on a car and then tinker with it, adding their own modifications and such. To each their mother****ing own!

[lxskllr]

I gave my mother my Vista laptop(Lenovo)... I guess it was about 3 years ago now, and she's had zero problems with it that weren't her doing. It's been rock stable, and has had no viruses. The biggest issue I deal with is her somehow turing the main menu off in Thunderbird, and telling me her email is broken :^D I still haven't figured out how she does it. I'm guess she's fat fingering keys somehow, and turning it off, but I haven't been able to replicate it. That's what they make LogMeIn for anyway :^)

[internope]

I didn't say that they are drooling morons, I said they make themselves sound like it. I've ran Windows for years on my computers, and have yet to have any sort of serious viruses in over a decade of use. Honestly, all I'm saying is that Mac fans vastly overrate the superiority of their own software, and massively underrate the Windows OS. Windows is not a great operating system. Mac is absolutely terrible, as far as I'm concerned, though. Yes, you won't get viruses often. Well that's lovely, My desktop won't get viruses running Arch linux, and I don't have to pay hundreds of dollars more for a crappier machine. Mac fans do have to face up to the fact sooner or later, you pay more money for poorer hardware. Your computer is going to become obsolete sooner, and cost more initially. I'll say it, the Mac Book Pro is like a diamond encrusted prismaster. Its fanciest features are completely functionally useless with the exception of a few professions, but it looks pretty and costs a ton of money, so people assume it has to be good. If your primary concern is security, take a weekend to learn how to run your computer properly, and put a linux distro on it, then. You'll get all the benefits of Mac OSes, without that god awful GUI they use, and you don't have to spend $400 or more for a computer than you would if you were shopping pcs based solely on hardware. Also, I don't know where you get that bit about it being a favourite amongst computer professionals. I've worked IT, and most IT guys hate Apple as much as they hate Windows. They'd rather just use a real unix system and not have to worry about the headache and expense of dealing with endless proprietary software. The only time I've seen an IT office insist they needed a Mac was when the company was deploying a bunch of Macs throughout it's campuses, and IT figured it would be easier to control them from a Mac than to try and get it working perfectly with their linux equipment or Windows gear.

Their top-notch engineering really just hurts you as a consumer. That solid external case won't help you a damn bit if I punt your MacBook Pro off a pier into the Atlantic, but it'll sure as hell make it much more difficult for you to fix things, if for example, you don't have time to wait for Apple to sit around and fix it and you know that you just need to replace the RAM or something. As for stringent hardware controls, for the price point, Mac hardware is vastly inferior to a comparable desktop or laptop. If you really love OS X or Lion, save yourself some wasted money, do a bit of research and just build a hackintosh.

I've been running Linux since the mid-90s and professionally managed nearly every major Unix variant and Windows release at one time or another over the years. I would venture to say that in the last 8 years at least half of the syadmins, network engineers, and coders that I know have moved from Windows or Linux on laptops to the MacBook. I've looked at the hackintosh stuff over the years, and it's a messy kludge that is best left to computer hobbyists who want to spend countless hours tweaking and reconfiguring every time an update comes out. Most of my web browsing at home is on a crappy old Compaq laptop running Ubuntu. Once the old Compaq dies I will probably appropriate my wife's current MacBook Pro and buy her another one.

Actually, yes, it's not that hard to see if there's a keylogger running in the background. Sure, it might not open another window, but Task Manager on Windows lists processes, and atop will do the same for Linux. When I see unfamiliar processes running, I google them to find out what they are. It's not nearly as difficult to deal with viruses as Mac fans seem to think. Don't download porn, don't install random programs from people/companies you don't know, don't play facebook games. If you want to torrent movies and music, find a reputable tracker that's known for banning people who upload virus-laden files. Windows could solve a good deal of their problems with viruses if Microsoft simply included a more robust permissions system, which is bound to happen eventually.

Task Manager or ps is fine, unless the malware has replaced these utilities with hacked up versions that hide the offending process. There was an emergency Flash update yesterday for a new 0-day exploit that was already in the wild. All of the safe web browsing practices you mention would do little to prevent exposure to the infected content via forums, banner networks, and legitimate web servers that have been hacked. Even tools like NoScript for Firefox might not help if the content was served from a site that you normally trust.

[shikitohno]

As you say, to each their own Roo. The price argument still falls the other way, in favour of a non-Mac system. If you factor in the motherboard I had to replace, I paid about $550 for my desktop, about five years ago, which works out to about $0.30 a day. If you talk in terms of cutting edge PC compared to cutting edge Mac, Mac will win in price. If you compare a cutting edge Mac against a PC with equivalent hardware, Macs still lose pretty badly I don't play games, I just do a lot of web browsing, listening to music and watch the odd movie on that computer. As for waiting for Mac to fix something, you're making a two-fold mistake Roo. One, you're misinterpreting me. As an example, my room mate a few years ago was a die hard Mac fan. He bought a new Mac book, and got a bad piece of hardware. He had to wait a week or two to send it off to Apple, have them fix it, and send it back to him. That's what I was talking about with not having to wait to fix it. Also, Mac does experience security vulnerabilities on a regular basis, and just don't tell anyone about them until they put out the patch that fixes the issue. So it's not as if you need to take advantage of your computers features for something to be broken. Design flaws occur on all major operating systems on a regular basis.

You should go with whichever OS works best for you. I suppose I just take particular issue with Macfans, because they automatically assume that what works for them is best for everyone, despite indications that specifically preclude a Mac. This thread is a great example. PP said he thinks $1000 would be more than enough to get him a laptop that would suit his needs. He's specifically stated that he's partial to dells, which in turn means he's perfectly comfortable running windows. Yet there are already numerous people who've basically come in and said, "I know you like system X, and you only want to spend so much money, but you should definitely spend more and get this, because I use it and I'm awesome so it must be awesome." I don't know, there's something about the diehard fanboys that exudes a certain smugness I just can't stand. When you add to the equation the delusion many seem to enjoy that Macs are inherently superior in every way, it just irks me. As I've said in previous discussions on here, Apple basically charges a premium for people who don't want to spend any time learning how to properly use a computer. If you can't be bothered to learn some simple tasks, or you have other reasons to dislike Windows or Linux, than Mac is likely what you're looking for.

Most of the arguments I here in favour of Macs just seem weak to me. They all basically seem to hinge on a vast overestimation of the difficulty of using any other operating system which is just completely out of touch with reality. I argue with people mostly because I just wish they'd admit already, "Okay, really, I just like this a lot. It works for me, and I didn't like the other OS I tried." rather than constant, and often times ludicrous, criticism of other operating systems. I like Linux. Does that mean PP should format his C drive when he gets the new computer and install Linux? Of course not. He's already let us know he's a non-technical user who is comfortable with Windows. I guess what I'm getting at is, it's a personal choice. Maybe tone things down a notch Mac boys. If someone asks, "Should I go Windows, Mac, or Linux for my next computer?" that's a great time to jump in and explain why you like Mac Books and think that person would too. If somebody is perfectly happy with Windows, and what they're looking for precludes the shiny Mac Book Pro by default, 8 of you shouting "Oh, call on me! Get a Mac!" are just as annoying as the guys who answer every question about Mac or Windows by saying, "Oh, run into trouble? Well, I see your problem. You're running Mac/Windows. What extravagance. By now, people should be programming binary directly into memory via dip switches. If they can't do that, they should at least format every thing and install "insert obscure linux distro."" There is no OS that is 100% perfect for everyone. It boils down to what you're happy using. If you like Macs and have the money to spend on them, by all means continue using them. But if I post a thread a year from now saying I'm looking for a new desktop and looking for deals, and planning on putting Arch Linux on it, please don't tell me why you think I would be so much better served buying a Mac.

As a side note, if any really feels like there's some relevant to contribute to this endless, internecine debate the internet seems to love so much, might I suggest we move it to another thread? We've basically hijacked PP's thread for the last page and a half, so if anyone has anything to add that doesn't ultimately boil down to "I like how OS Y does X better than how OS Z does it. My preference for this is superior and more informed than your own." let's be considerate to PP and open up a different thread for it.