This is bulls*it!!!!!

[Frankie Reloaded]

Once again, F-THEM ALL. ANd screw political correctness. This world needs to get over itself BIGTIME.

My words exactly! F-THEM ALL, then kill them all and send their ugly remains back to America to be buried someplace where US citizens will be reminded daily not to go and invade foreign countries just to steal their natural resources. YEAH!

Oh... You did mean the American intruders in foreign lands, didn´t you?

[truthwolf1]

That's the point. Even if you only count Americans as important, we're running a deficit on the "pay off". The ledger looks much worse if you count everyone.

Wait for the Depleted Uranium/chemical soup body counts. 44 days in Gulf 1 and now close to a decade in two countries.

[Ainkor]

That said...............we should have never been there in the first place...............Remember the WHOLE mid-east mess started with European arrogance after WWI when the allies divided up the fallen Ottoman Empire among themselves with no regard to existing tribal, Ethnic, or religious demarcations………….but only their own competing national interests

Word.

Solution? Back our toys up and go home.

On another note, I don't care what the reason, I strongly disagree with burning any book. I may not like the idea, thought or intention behind it, there is something VERY important about the written word.
Just take it away and shove it in a box somewhere if they are coding messages on it.

I am way over the whole middle east intervention. Leave them to their own devices, we are not the worlds police. Our actions in the middle east over the last 10 years haven't done anything to keep us more safe. If anything has, its the extreme levels of security on travel. Oh, and that private CIA like organization in Texas :P

[Frankie Reloaded]

Ainkor: If it really was about coded messages... What does a military force do when it intercepts a coded message from the enemy? Burns it? Instead of sending it to its own spies to analyze and store the stuff forever?

[BadAxe]

My words exactly! F-THEM ALL, then kill them all and send their ugly remains back to America to be buried someplace where US citizens will be reminded daily not to go and invade foreign countries just to steal their natural resources. YEAH!

Oh... You did mean the American intruders in foreign lands, didn´t you?

Not exactly I didn't. lol. Although I don't blame our soldiers, I blame our gov't if they are where they shouldn't be. I just don't want to see a campaign where our returning soldiers get blamed for propoganda, and are treated badly. Soldiers only follow orders. Take it out on the gov't that sends the soldiers for their agendas.

And F Them All refers to all of the political correctnes in the world, not just the USA, where words are made to be SUCH A BIG DEAL, like people don't get over deragatory comments in like 5 minutes. This world just sucks real bad in this time, in the US and everywhere else. Gov't as a whole just sucks, and I really hope to see people unite as revolt as a whole in my lifetime, cause this world sure needs it.

And Frankie, I am with you on that one. I know it makes me sound anti-US, I am not, I am anti-gov't. I am sick of them using our soldiers for oil under the premise of fighting for our freedom. And I agree with you, we should not be invadng to steal their resources.

[Frankie Reloaded]

Actually, I am as far from being anti-American as you can get in this part of the globe. I always loved the American culture and most of my working years I spent translating American books. Five years before that I (also) studied US literature at the university, because that was what I liked.

But I do not share your view of the soldiers being innocent angels who just follow orders, so the politicians are the only ones to blame. because the same would then be true for Schutzstaffel in death camps or - closer to the current situation - the Soviet Red Army troopers in Afghanistan. Do you really believe Soviet soldaaty were innocent and no blame is to fall on them? I do not. And the same applies to all, who go and kill people half a world away just to get their pay. I think there are a few Slovaks among the occupation forces there, too. They should be summarily shot either right there or when they return home, because murder is murder accessary to murder is accessary to murder and the only place for a soldier is in his homeland, which he is paid to defend (unless counterattacking, but I do not recall any country being attacked by the Pashtuns).

Anyway, I think it´s time for me to crawl back under my rock and let the American discussion be undisturbed by nasty foreign points of view

[Ainkor]

Ainkor: If it really was about coded messages... What does a military force do when it intercepts a coded message from the enemy? Burns it? Instead of sending it to its own spies to analyze and store the stuff forever?

I fundamentally disagree with us being over there in the first place so any opinion I have on the matter is skewed through that. One area I struggle with is that if we were in their (middle easterners) position, we would be doing much the same thing, probably worse.

Unfortunately we make fatal missteps at almost each turn with our interactions with the people over there and we look like bumbling idiots. Our army is good at killing yet horrible at nation building. I don't feel the same way about a person burning a bible but that doesn't make their view/opinion/belief more or less valid. That being said, I don't agree with their reaction but I wasn't raised as a devout muslim so I don't have a frame of reference to judge that by.

I will say this though... My wife (then girlfriend) got pregnant when we were both 17. A VERY devout family member offered to pay for an abortion, and I find that reprehensible. I have also interacted with extremely religious people who would rather die that take a treatment they feel violates their faith. More power to them. My frame of reference for religious observation is skewed because of how religion is practiced in america but it doesn't mean theirs is more or less right.

I challenge anyone to justify the wests actions over the last 200 years in the middle east and validate anything that we have done as a result of that. Bottom line, we (as in western culture) are invading their space, propping up puppet dictators and trying to lord over the land in obvious and not obvious ways for the almighty dollar and oil. They live eat and breathe their beliefs which we don't understand. That is the core of the conflict.

[snusjus]

Is this bulls*it? ... In a word, yes. I'm an atheist so i'd burn all religious books, don't care, not interested!!! They use the words "inhumane and shameful"... It's a f**king book, get over it...

I share your sentiments, as I'm also an atheist (and a liberal). If a secular book was burned, there would be no trial; this happens with great frequency. The amount of respect and intellectual cushioning religion enjoys -- in the 21st century -- is beyond appalling.

[lxskllr]

But I do not share your view of the soldiers being innocent angels who just follow orders, so the politicians are the only ones to blame. because the same would then be true for Schutzstaffel in death camps or - closer to the current situation - the Soviet Red Army troopers in Afghanistan. Do you really believe Soviet soldaaty were innocent and no blame is to fall on them? I do not. And the same applies to all, who go and kill people half a world away just to get their pay. I think there are a few Slovaks among the occupation forces there, too. They should be summarily shot either right there or when they return home, because murder is murder accessary to murder is accessary to murder and the only place for a soldier is in his homeland, which he is paid to defend (unless counterattacking, but I do not recall any country being attacked by the Pashtuns).

Anyway, I think it´s time for me to crawl back under my rock and let the American discussion be undisturbed by nasty foreign points of view

All good points. I'll have to admit I'm biased towards the military, but I think I idealize a bit more than I should. My ideal military would be used for defense, and conquest; not policing the world, or engaging in nation building. I'd rather see an annihilation of the middle east, and a takeover as a US territory rather than the weaselly way we do it now. That said, we should stick to our borders, and let the rest of the world go about its business.

Anyway, point is individual soldiers share responsibility with the wars we currently have going. We've waged them long enough that the majority in the military now, enlisted during the conflict. Starving the machine from the inside(no one to fight) is one way of achieving the end goal. That would take massive coordination, and an assumption that everyone agrees that we shouldn't be the worlds cops, which isn't the case. It's kind of complicated, and the most obvious answer is to fix it from the top. That way men can join the military sure they'll be used properly instead of the bullshit we have now.

[BadAxe]

Actually, I am as far from being anti-American as you can get in this part of the globe. I always loved the American culture and most of my working years I spent translating American books. Five years before that I (also) studied US literature at the university, because that was what I liked.

But I do not share your view of the soldiers being innocent angels who just follow orders, so the politicians are the only ones to blame. because the same would then be true for Schutzstaffel in death camps or - closer to the current situation - the Soviet Red Army troopers in Afghanistan. Do you really believe Soviet soldaaty were innocent and no blame is to fall on them? I do not. And the same applies to all, who go and kill people half a world away just to get their pay. I think there are a few Slovaks among the occupation forces there, too. They should be summarily shot either right there or when they return home, because murder is murder accessary to murder is accessary to murder and the only place for a soldier is in his homeland, which he is paid to defend (unless counterattacking, but I do not recall any country being attacked by the Pashtuns).

Anyway, I think it´s time for me to crawl back under my rock and let the American discussion be undisturbed by nasty foreign points of view

What is a soldier to do? He would spend the rest of his life behind military bars if he did not follow orders, plus soldiers believe in what they do, so they believe they are fighting for our freedom. I can not place blame on the soldiers. As far as the brutality of war, I can not judge. I myself think that it is moronic in 2012 that humans are still slaughtering each other, but when it comes to judging a soldier for acts during war, I stay out of it, and I think the media and public should to. Unless we ourselves have been to war, none of us even come close to understanding what they go through, and how war changes a man.

[Naswari]

What is a soldier to do? He would spend the rest of his life behind military bars if he did not follow orders, plus soldiers believe in what they do, so they believe they are fighting for our freedom. I can not place blame on the soldiers. As far as the brutality of war, I can not judge. I myself think that it is moronic in 2012 that humans are still slaughtering each other, but when it comes to judging a soldier for acts during war, I stay out of it, and I think the media and public should to. Unless we ourselves have been to war, none of us even come close to understanding what they go through, and how war changes a man.

[BadAxe]

Thanks for sharing that. Itsn ice to see a man speaking that knows what he is talking about, and he speaks the truth. If only more people would listen.

[Frosted]

Exactly, I don't see how people are surprised when being attacked when having troops in a country like those you listed. Or in any other country, just look at North Ireland and the IRA.

I personally don't see muslim funtamentalists worse than jewish and christian fundamentalists, they are all same people.

Civil war was breaking out in Northern Ireland. As Ulster is British soil, British troops were sent in to help the police force, the Royal (British) Ulster Constabulary, who could not cope with the level of violence. Protestants were driving catholics out of their homes by setting fire to them and shooting them. British troops were sent to protect the Catholic population from these attacks. Later the Catholics turned on the British troops when they formed the Provisional Irish Republican Army. Bloody Sunday did not help.

So in a nutshell - the British Army were helping the British police maintain order. This would happen in any country where the police force couldn't cope.

[BadAxe]

Civil war was breaking out in Northern Ireland. As Ulster is British soil, British troops were sent in to help the police force, the Royal (British) Ulster Constabulary, who could not cope with the level of violence. Protestants were driving catholics out of their homes by setting fire to them and shooting them. British troops were sent to protect the Catholic population from these attacks. Later the Catholics turned on the British troops when they formed the Provisional Irish Republican Army. Bloody Sunday did not help.

So in a nutshell - the British Army were helping the British police maintain order. This would happen in any country where the police force couldn't cope.

O man, religion sounds just so peaceful and rewarding. Jeez I still wish I believed n the myth called god. Then I could kill in his name as well.

[Naswari]

O man, religion sounds just so peaceful and rewarding. Jeez I still wish I believed n the myth called god. Then I could kill in his name as well.

Well if you don't believe in God you can always kill in the name of democracy or communism or (plain old give me your oil and other resources) capitalism.