This is bulls*it!!!!!

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  • sgreger1
    Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 9451

    #46
    Originally posted by Naswari
    Some Muslims burn the American flag as do some people in central and south America as well as people in other parts of the world, but no Muslims will ever burn the Bible.Muslims (and yes I happen to be one, maybe not a very good one but a Muslim nevertheless) respect the Bible and we respect and love Jesus and believe him to be a Prophet/messenger of God just as we believe Abraham,Moses etc were also messengers of God.

    So your assertion that Muslims burn bibles is a false one.

    I could say a lot more about the whole situation in the world today but I wont, I come here to talk about snus not religion or world politics so Ill leave it at that.

    Good day

    Naswari, first of all I would like to preface my comments with the fact that I don't have anything against Muslims personally, just like I don't have anything against Christians personally. I do have a problem with religion as a whole but I understand that honest, good people who are religious are still honest, good people.

    That being said, I have to call absolute BS on your claim. I am familiar with how Jesus/Mary is seen as a holy figure to Muslims and therefore the Bible is also sacred and not to be burned, but like everything else in religion the rules are malleable and easily broken.

    For example, Muslims burn bibles all the time. Here are my sources:

    "Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses". In this one "the Muslim gunmen used rocket-propeled grenades (RPGs) to blow through the doors of the church and school, before burning Bibles and destroying every cross they could get their hands on.". Contrary to my previous comment however, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas condemned the attack as "barbaric and despicable", so not quite an apology but I think that counts good enough as one in my book.


    Four men were caught Tuesday evening while burning the Bible, calendars depicting Jesus Christ and other Christian booklets, reports the Pakistan-based Daily Times.




    The list goes on:

    •2005: Saudi Arabia Desecrates Hundreds of Bibles Annually

    25 May 2005, Saudi Arabia Desecrates Hundreds of Bibles AnnuallyWashington DC - The Saudi government burns and desecrates hundreds of bibles its security forces confiscate after raids on Christian expatriates worshiping privately or at border crossings.

    As a matter of official policy, the government either incinerates or dumps bibles, crosses and other Christian paraphernalia.

    Hundreds of Christian worshipers are arrested every year by Saudi police in raids on their private gatherings. Bibles, crosses and printed materials are confiscated and later burnt or dumped into trash. Bibles and other Christian paraphernalia found with travelers into the country are confiscated and destroyed.

    Although considered as holy in Islam and mentioned in the Koran dozens of times, the Bible is banned in Saudi Arabia, and is confiscated and destroyed by government officials.

    Recently, there has been a crackdown on symbols of Christianity in Saudi Arabia. On April 21st Saudi authorities raided a make-shift church in Riyadh and arrested 40 Christians. Many Christian religious symbols, such as crucifixes and bibles were later destroyed by Saudi security forces.
    •2006: Muslim students urinate, spit on, then burn Bible

    10 Dec 2006, Muslim Students Urinate, Spit On Then Burn Bible
    TWO Muslim students have been expelled from an Islamic school in Melbourne for urinating and spitting on a Bible and setting it on fire.
    The explosive incident has forced the East Preston Islamic College to call in a senior imam to tell its 650 Muslim students that the Bible and Christianity must be respected.

    Anxious teachers at the school have also petitioned principal Shaheem Doutie, expressing "grave concern" about an "inculcation of hatred and radical attitudes towards non-Muslims" at the school, including towards non-Muslim teachers.
    ...

    "The main perpetrator (a Year 7 student) urinated on the Holy Bible, tore some pages from the Holy Book and burnt them then finally spat on the Holy Book," the report says.

    The second boy, from Year 9, "tore pages from the Holy Book and burnt them", while a third student, from Year 7, "tore pages from the Holy Bible and then he rolled it up like a cigarette and pretended to smoke it".

    The boys come from a variety of ethnic Muslim backgrounds -- one is believed to be an Albanian/Malaysian, another Lebanese and another Indonesian.

    •2007: Christians in Gaza fear for their lives as Muslims burn Bibles and destroy crosses

    18 Jun 2007, Christians in Gaza Fear for Their Lives as Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy CrossesFather Manuel Musallem, head of Gaza's Latin church, told the AP that Muslims have ransacked, burned and looted a school and convent that are part of the Gaza Strip's small Romany Catholic community. He told the AP that crosses were broken, damage was done to a statue of Jesus, and at the Rosary Sister School and nearby convent, prayer books were burned.
    ...
    Father Musalam additionally told The Jerusalem Post that the Muslim gunmen used rocket-propeled grenades (RPGs) to blow through the doors of the church and school, before burning Bibles and destroying every cross they could get their hands on.

    •2008: Muslims burn Bible in Pakistan

    19 Dec 2008, Muslims burn Bible in PakistanPervez Masih tells AsiaNews that on that day, he and others were whitewashing and decorating the little church for Christmas. They stopped at noon for lunch, leaving the church open. When they returned, they found the bible and other sacred texts reduced to ashes, and a handwritten letter telling them to convert to Islam if they wanted to "live in peace" and avoid hell. In Pakistan, there is significant controversy over the law on blasphemy, condemning even to death those who offend the sacred book of Islam, the Qur'an. But nothing is done against blasphemous acts toward the books of other religions.



    The whole concept of "Muslims would never burn the bible because the Koran says so" is about as fake as when Christians say "Jesus teaches peace and goodwill towards all men" but then go out and burn a bunch of Korans to piss of the Muslims. Again, no disrespect on your personally, I am only pointing out that your statement is inaccurate.

    Comment

    • sgreger1
      Member
      • Mar 2009
      • 9451

      #47
      Originally posted by Frosted
      If anybody knows an ounce about modern soldiering, burning the Koran was an idiotic, insensitive and cringeworthy thing to do. Operationally, this kind of stupidity can take years off any progress gained.

      On the other hand, killing people because of it is equally idiotic.
      Yah you would get in mad trouble if you got caught doing that regardless of what unit you were in. On a local level everyone giggles about "**** muslims" etc but as far as the unit is concerned shit like this is a PR nightmare. It was just two stupid guys being stupid, nothing to riot or kill over. Like I said, discipline them and be done with it, no need to have the ****ing president apologize and make a whole media spectacle out of it.

      You're worrying about the policy side of it, i.e. that it's not advantageous to the mission etc. This wasn't a department-wide policy or something stating that soldiers should burn Korans, this was two guys who burned some Korans. It is about two idiots, and has nothing to do with the actual army or their strategy (other than that these guys aren't helping us "win the hearts and minds of the people", but that is always a secondary objective).

      Comment

      • sgreger1
        Member
        • Mar 2009
        • 9451

        #48
        Originally posted by Roo
        We need some perspective here. We are talking about what happened in Afghanistan, not bibles being burned in the USA and how the Amish would react (??). While I'm not at all in support of the Afghan response, let us not forget who we are dealing with. Afghans, simply put, have nothing left but their traditions, tribal allegiances, and Islam. They are an occupied country, and after 10 years of the occupiers "murdering" (as it is perceived) and accomplishing nothing (as it is perceived), now they (we) are insulting their deeply-seeded religion, which is all that some feel they have left to grasp on to. Given this scenario, is it any surprise that it takes little to push these folks over the edge?

        It is clear as day that people in Afghanistan will respond this way to the smallest of provocations, and that will never change. Just one more reason to GTFO.
        This is absolutely true, but still is not an excuse for their behaviour. We can't write off their constant rioting, murdering flash mobs etc as a "cultural thing", that shit is unacceptable. In the US if a bible is burned people will grumble about it at church, no one is going to go out in a mob of 1,000 people and go break into military bases, storm government buildings, kill people, or burn down every mosque within walking distance etc.

        Comment

        • Premium Parrots
          Super Moderators
          • Feb 2008
          • 9760

          #49
          I wonder how Hitler would feel about this?




          just sayin





          Burn Blunts Not The Bible or The Koran



          good thread.
          Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I killed because they were annoying......





          I've been wrong lots of times.  Lots of times I've thought I was wrong only to find out that I was right in the beginning.


          Comment

          • Roo
            Member
            • Jun 2008
            • 3446

            #50
            Originally posted by sgreger1
            This is absolutely true, but still is not an excuse for their behaviour. We can't write off their constant rioting, murdering flash mobs etc as a "cultural thing", that shit is unacceptable. In the US if a bible is burned people will grumble about it at church, no one is going to go out in a mob of 1,000 people and go break into military bases, storm government buildings, kill people, or burn down every mosque within walking distance etc.
            Not saying entirely cultural. Circumstantial. What would be your final straw in their shoes? And again, not excusing. I am trying to understand.

            Comment

            • sgreger1
              Member
              • Mar 2009
              • 9451

              #51
              Originally posted by Roo
              Not saying entirely cultural. Circumstantial. What would be your final straw in their shoes? And again, not excusing. I am trying to understand.
              Circumstantial yes, but it's not just Afghans who are like this, it is also in places like Pakistan and Gaza specifically, as well as elsewhere. It seems inherent to several countries. Cultural, circumstantial, whatever, it is not an acceptable response, we are all humans and humans should not treat each other like that (murdering each other over books, beliefs etc).

              On a personal level I wouldn't do something to piss off a specific group like that, but I am not sure that pissing them off was their intention. And either way, they didn't hurt anyone, they burned a book. I guess while I can understand the reasons why they act like this, I can't understand why no one ever has a eureka moment and says "Oh shit, this is not the way to deal with our anger", ala what shiki was talking about.

              Comment

              • Premium Parrots
                Super Moderators
                • Feb 2008
                • 9760

                #52
                I miss Tom
                Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I killed because they were annoying......





                I've been wrong lots of times.  Lots of times I've thought I was wrong only to find out that I was right in the beginning.


                Comment

                • shikitohno
                  Member
                  • Jul 2009
                  • 1156

                  #53
                  I'm with sgreger. I can understand the reasons why the might do this. Or rather, I could understand the first couple of times. But it's clearly not working for them, and it wasn't really acceptable to begin with. At this point, it's silly because past experience has shown it doesn't work, yet they're trying again anyway in the hopes that this time something will magically be different. It's about time for them to draw up a new strategy. I would have a hard time believing anyone would seriously find them at fault if they took up arms and waged a guerilla war against us.

                  This war is becoming more and more like the Vietnam war every day. The major difference, as I see it, is that the people are far more disorganized, and they're much better at spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt amongst themselves then we could ever hope to be. I think the Afghans need a charismatic leader they can rally around far more than they need our understanding. Having a good leader who could crystallize their worries and ideals into a solid platform for them to get behind could do far more to rally opposition to the US and get the people behind actions that will actually have a lasting impact could do them far more good in the long term than any number of riots.

                  Comment

                  • sgreger1
                    Member
                    • Mar 2009
                    • 9451

                    #54
                    Originally posted by shikitohno
                    At this point, it's silly because past experience has shown it doesn't work, yet they're trying again anyway in the hopes that this time something will magically be different. It's about time for them to draw up a new strategy
                    Oh sh1t, they're America ಠ_ಠ

                    Comment

                    • Darwin
                      Member
                      • Mar 2010
                      • 1372

                      #55
                      Originally posted by shikitohno
                      This war is becoming more and more like the Vietnam war every day.
                      Oh man the Vietnamese were absolute models of sober rationality and iron discipline compared to these ululating homicidal whackjobs whose culture will any day now vault right into the tenth century.

                      Comment

                      • Roo
                        Member
                        • Jun 2008
                        • 3446

                        #56
                        My main point is that as long as we continue occupying their land, instigating their shitstorm, and participating in what should be their distant affairs, we shouldn't cry foul or be surprised when shit doesn't go our way. Just GTFO.

                        Comment

                        • Naswari
                          Member
                          • Feb 2012
                          • 113

                          #57
                          Originally posted by sgreger1

                          That being said, I have to call absolute BS on your claim.

                          O.K maybe I should have worded that differently and stated that no Muslims should burn any religious texts, point taken.

                          Having said that I must say that to put all the rioting down to this incident alone and to compare the reaction of the Afghan people to how a non occupied people might react to a similar incident is nonsensical.

                          http://www.salon.com/2012/02/26/the_...n_afghanistan/


                          It’s comforting to believe that these violent protests and the obviously intense anti-American rage driving them is primarily about anger over the inadvertent burning of some religious books: that way, we can dismiss the rage as primitive and irrational and see the American targets as victims. But the Afghans themselves are making clear that this latest episode is but the trigger for — the latest symbol of — a pile of long-standing, underlying grievances about a decade-old, extremely violent foreign military presence in their country. It’s much more difficult to dismiss those grievances as the by-product of primitive religious fanaticism, so — as usual — they just get ignored.

                          Might one say the same for Muslims and the Koran? Along those lines, just imagine what would happen if
                          a Muslim army invaded the U.S., violently occupied the country for more than a decade, in the process continuously killing American children and innocent adults, and then, outside of a prison camp it maintained where thousands of Americans were detained for years without charges and tortured, that Muslim army burned American flags — or a stack of bibles — in a garbage dump. Might we see some extremely angry protests breaking out from Americans against them? Would American pundits be denouncing those protesters as blinkered, primitive fanatics?

                          Comment

                          • sgreger1
                            Member
                            • Mar 2009
                            • 9451

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Naswari
                            O.K maybe I should have worded that differently and stated that no Muslims should burn any religious texts, point taken.

                            Having said that I must say that to put all the rioting down to this incident alone and to compare the reaction of the Afghan people to how a non occupied people might react to a similar incident is nonsensical.

                            http://www.salon.com/2012/02/26/the_...n_afghanistan/


                            Well you won't hear any argument from me on that issue. This is what happens when you occupy a foreign land for a decade and destroy their infrastructure, kill their children (though not intentionally) etc. People start getting a hair trigger.

                            If I were living in Iraq/Afghanistan and was born and raised there, and then someone came and occupied my home and started rounding up people into gitmo etc I would be in the taliban or Alquaida too, just like if your "muslims invade the US" scenario played out I would be part of whatever resistance group sprouted up to fight them.


                            Pack up our stuff and GTFO. We could save a lot of money on top of it, I see it as a win/win.

                            Comment

                            • Frankie Reloaded
                              Banned Users
                              • Jan 2011
                              • 541

                              #59
                              Originally posted by sgreger1
                              Circumstantial yes, but it's not just Afghans who are like this, it is also in places like Pakistan and Gaza specifically, as well as elsewhere. It seems inherent to several countries.
                              Countries and counties. Like... L.A. County. The local Negroes burned half the town just because a drunk was kicked in the posterior by a policeman. No religious scriptures were needed...

                              Comment

                              • sgreger1
                                Member
                                • Mar 2009
                                • 9451

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Frankie Reloaded
                                Countries and counties. Like... L.A. County. The local Negroes burned half the town just because a drunk was kicked in the posterior by a policeman. No religious scriptures were needed...
                                So we have one isolated event in CA, which was caused by the brutal beating of Rodney King by an entire team of police officers who, once the charges were dismissed, caused a riot. See, the cops actually injured/tried to kill Rodney King. They didn't burn a book by themselves. The riots were about police brutality. Like Shiki said, I don't think anyone would call foul if they started rioting against the occupying forces, but they instead choose to riot over a book being burned instead. The LA Riots are apples/oranges compared to what we are discussing here. It is completely untrue to claim that America, or any of it's states or groups, routinely has flash mobs that go kill people, burn down building, go blow up mosques etc. Especially not over a book being burn, even a holy one. People even burn American flags her, and if there is one thing America is, it's nationalist. But you don't see us out killing each other over it.

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