Checkmate, atheists!!!!!

[truthwolf1]

[sgreger1]

I'll just add a little something to this discussion.

I'm a Christian. I believe in God. Those who choose to believe or not believe have the freedom to do so. I have a diverse family (Christians, Muslims, and Athiests), we all get along fine because we all realise that fighting over religion is stupid. I have not once stuck my nose (or Bible) in anyones face, or made others feel bad for what they believe. I think Athiests who insult those who choose to believe in God are just as wrong as those who are religious and shove it in other peoples faces.

While there are bad people who claim to be religious, there are equally as many bad people who are Athiest. For every Priest that abuses a child, there are 1000 child abusers who have no religious connection. Yes, there are problems within the Church, but no more so than what is out there already. People can find an excuse to do bad things without religion. The people who use religion as an excuse for evil acts are just as wrong as those who use any other excuse to commit such evil acts. So don't blame religion for all the worlds problems. There are plenty of problems that have no connection to religion at all.

Carry on.

I respect your viewpoint but I think if you look at the bigger picture it is unfair to say that for every priest who abuses a child there is 100 athiests or unaffiliated people abusing a child. There is simply no data that I am ware of to back that up. You are right, bad people will always find a justification to do bad things, but religions in general provide an extra set of excuses to do bad things, and the books themselves actually call on it's believers to execute these ban things in the name of the lord. Take a muslim terrorist who takes a more literal interpretation of the koran and wages a jihad against america or whoever in order to try to re-establish the caliphate. This belief will lead to many bad things, including 9-11, the various bogus wars on terror we are fighting etc. Religions actively try to persecute gays, women, the mentally disabled etc. I don't think there is one institution that does more damage to our society in the modern world (or in any other point in history) than religion does, specifically because it not only condones such divisive and often times violent acts, but it actually calls for it to be done in the name of god and threatens you with a burning pit if you don't obey this vengefull and wrathfull god (who is somehow also loving and benevolent).

Now most christians and muslims don't read the bible or pay attention to what is in it, and they cherry pick all the feel good "love thy neighbor" kinds stuff. You know the type, the sunday only christians who conveniently disregard the parts of the bible that say women should not have rights or that gays should be killed etc. But the reality is that you are subscribing to a set of beliefs which are not the type of beliefs which lead to a peacefull society.

After centuries of thiests pushing it onto everyone else, you can only sort of expect that now that athiests aren't killed or shunned they are going to begin speaking out about how much they hate religion. It's sort of what happens after that many years of oppression.

[BardicDruid]

Insanity is believing your hallucinations are real. Religion is believing that other peoples hallucinations are real.

[OregonNative]

I respect your viewpoint but I think if you look at the bigger picture it is unfair to say that for every priest who abuses a child there is 100 athiests or unaffiliated people abusing a child. There is simply no data that I am ware of to back that up. You are right, bad people will always find a justification to do bad things, but religions in general provide an extra set of excuses to do bad things, and the books themselves actually call on it's believers to execute these ban things in the name of the lord. Take a muslim terrorist who takes a more literal interpretation of the koran and wages a jihad against america or whoever in order to try to re-establish the caliphate. This belief will lead to many bad things, including 9-11, the various bogus wars on terror we are fighting etc. Religions actively try to persecute gays, women, the mentally disabled etc. I don't think there is one institution that does more damage to our society in the modern world (or in any other point in history) than religion does, specifically because it not only condones such divisive and often times violent acts, but it actually calls for it to be done in the name of god and threatens you with a burning pit if you don't obey this vengefull and wrathfull god (who is somehow also loving and benevolent).

Now most christians and muslims don't read the bible or pay attention to what is in it, and they cherry pick all the feel good "love thy neighbor" kinds stuff. You know the type, the sunday only christians who conveniently disregard the parts of the bible that say women should not have rights or that gays should be killed etc. But the reality is that you are subscribing to a set of beliefs which are not the type of beliefs which lead to a peacefull society.

After centuries of thiests pushing it onto everyone else, you can only sort of expect that now that athiests aren't killed or shunned they are going to begin speaking out about how much they hate religion. It's sort of what happens after that many years of oppression.

When I mentioned that for every 1 Priest that abuses a child, 100 non religious people abuse a child, I didn't mean that non religious people are worse. I mean't that compared to the rest of the population, there are not so many priests.

I do respect your (and everyone elses) beliefs. I agree that many bad things are done in the name of God, but many good things are done because of God as well. I am not literal about religion. I look at the Bible as a guide for how I should live my life, not an exact rule book. I try to take the good, and I try to be a good person in general. I realise that many people who are atheist also try to be good people, I am by no means suggesting that without God in their lives they are going to become monsters. When people take anything to literally, it can often cause problems. Not just religion. The thing people need to remember is that the Bible, Torah, and the Qu'ran were all written over 2000 years ago. You cannot take any text that is so ancient and translate it literally.

I understand the anger from Athiests, but religion is not the cause of all of the worlds problems. Honestly, poverty is the cause of all the worlds problems. You can see the problems in the Middle East, and North/East Africa and blame it on Islam, but in reality the problem is poverty. Poverty is the cause of most of the worlds problems, and most of the violence in society. When people have nothing, they will look for any excuse to fight back against those who have a better life than they do. If you want to take the Middle East/Africa out of the picture, then look at the damage that was done at the hands of Stalin, and Mao. These men were both Communists and tried to destroy religion within their countries (see Mao's cultural revolution), and in the process killed millions of people (including their own), and caused pain & suffering for countless others. Much of these problems came from poverty as well and had no connection to religion at all.

Again, while I understand the anger from Athiets, I doubt that very few people have been treated poorly for believing or not believing in God, at least in this current lifetime. Perhaps if you have lived in parts of the Middle East, or Africa, but for the rest of the world, the chances are quite low. I've lived in N. America, Europe, and Asia and have seen no persecution due to religion. I'm not arguing with you, I'm just saying, most people are not going to be treated badly because of their choice to not believe in God.

[Kaplan]

People start wars, religion is just the excuse. And while religious institutions have been guilty of many things, I don't think that's why religion is evil.

I think religion is bad because it brainwashes people into accepting irrational beliefs, teaching them that it's okay to have absolutely no proof on your side, so long as you feel that you're right. It holds down people's rational mind. No one can truly be a rational creature who actually believes that there's a personal god looking after them. Not in this day and age. And of course, most people who profess a belief in god, don't actually believe that, or else they wouldn't be leading the lives they lead. What religion does to a person's mind I consider evil.

And looking at the Christian religion, I can't help but consider the God that is depicted in the Old Testament to be nothing more than a hideous monster. That's not a God, that's pure evil. He's presented as a total psychopath. He's a vain, vindictive, vengeful, jealous, bloodthirsty tyrant. And that's a nice way of describing him. Suppose a scientist set up an experiment where a rat could get cocaine by pushing the lever, the scientist knowing beforehand the rat's going to push the lever until it overdoses. And then when the rat overdoses, the scientist goes berserk, pulls out a meat cleaver and starts hacking to bits the hundred other rats who had the misfortune of being there. And then exhausted and spent, the scientist tells all the remaining rats how much he loves them. Even that analogy doesn't really adequately convey how bizarrely psycho this God is, because supposedly this God is all-powerful and is the Creator of Man. No, thanks. No way I'd worship such a creature, and I just can't comprehend how anyone can take seriously the Bible, Christianity or any related religion.

Read philosophy, mediate, experience nature, do tai chi, help the poor and unfortunate and elderly, or whatever, if you want to lead a more fulfilling and spiritual life.

[chainsnuser]

And looking at the Christian religion, I can't help but consider the God that is depicted in the Old Testament to be nothing more than a hideous monster.

Most of the bible are certainly not the words of God but propaganda-texts on behalf of the respective rulers.

2000 or 3000 years ago it just wasn't as easy as it is today to fool people that a country has to be bombed to the ground because it, e.g., allegedly possesses "weapons of mass destruction". At that time it was easier to fool people to believe that a nation has to be extermined because it is reported to be God's explicit will.

The topic in my view is far too complicated to be discussed in a single thread of a snus-forum. In order to develop a more laid-back relationship to religion (even if one decides to be an atheist) it is surely helpful to grow up among rational people (no bigots, preachers of hate or people who take the bible serious word by word) and to recieve (or learn to know) a religious education that is open to modern scientific findings (no fundamentalism).

Cheers!

[texastorm]

... it is surely helpful to grow up among rational people (no bigots, preachers of hate or people who take the bible serious word by word) and to recieve (or learn to know) a religious education that is open to modern scientific findings (no fundamentalism).

Cheers!

Hmm I think I disagree with this statement "as is". In other words, how do you measure how nutty a religious nut is unless you have a spectrum. (If however you mean that it was good for you to see diversity then maybe we agree, but I did not read it that way) I grew up in many locations with many types of people, I participated in many religions, some bordering on cultism, I met so many people along the way that I came to my own conclusions about religion. While I am an atheist, I can fully understand why someone who only sees one part of that spectrum growing up, would have reservations about going outside those boundaries. So I have to conclude that at least in my case, growing up around the fruits and nuts allowed for me to develop ideas that where wholly mine and no one else's. Had those fringe elements of insanity not been present in my learning process, I might have become a devout southern baptist. But learning taught me it was much better to be a disbeliever and not go to church than be a disbeliever and lie to the congregation with stories that I believed as they did.

I remember well and argument with my ex wife while married. She was a member of the Church of Christ, and in that flavor of Christianity one is supposed to believe that the earth and everything we know was all deposited here en mass functional and working as it is now about 8000 or so years ago. Dinosaur bones and carbon dating are put here to "fool" the unbelievers, and as such I completely disregarded everything else her pastor ever said. Because when I questioned the man, his answer was " Well you just have to have faith" So in light of evidence to the contrary one must have faith that God is a liar? Hmmm Well screw that god in my opinion.

As my childhood progressed I was bounced from person to person and religion to religion. Seeing the extremes was what made me the open person I am today. I am open to anything... all you have to do is show me some evidence, some proof. The bible as it stands is NOT PROOF of anything. Just because the origins of the book lie 2000+ years in the past, no one today has a 2000+ year old copy of the bible in its entirety, and it was pieced together from other writings to begin with. Inspired? Maybe... Proof of God.... Not exactly.

But to simplify the argument, just reverse it. Lets say you grew up in a world where 50+ percent of everyone where outspoken atheists, and you found a 1000 year old book about some god... would you expect anyone to believe you?

I think not.

Its the diversity of religions that makes the argument interesting for me, and keeps me going down the path of questioning faith year after year. Having known "nuts" makes it a more memorable journey.

[sgreger1]

Hmm I think I disagree with this statement "as is". In other words, how do you measure how nutty a religious nut is unless you have a spectrum. (If however you mean that it was good for you to see diversity then maybe we agree, but I did not read it that way) I grew up in many locations with many types of people, I participated in many religions, some bordering on cultism, I met so many people along the way that I came to my own conclusions about religion. While I am an atheist, I can fully understand why someone who only sees one part of that spectrum growing up, would have reservations about going outside those boundaries. So I have to conclude that at least in my case, growing up around the fruits and nuts allowed for me to develop ideas that where wholly mine and no one else's. Had those fringe elements of insanity not been present in my learning process, I might have become a devout southern baptist. But learning taught me it was much better to be a disbeliever and not go to church than be a disbeliever and lie to the congregation with stories that I believed as they did.

I remember well and argument with my ex wife while married. She was a member of the Church of Christ, and in that flavor of Christianity one is supposed to believe that the earth and everything we know was all deposited here en mass functional and working as it is now about 8000 or so years ago. Dinosaur bones and carbon dating are put here to "fool" the unbelievers, and as such I completely disregarded everything else her pastor ever said. Because when I questioned the man, his answer was " Well you just have to have faith" So in light of evidence to the contrary one must have faith that God is a liar? Hmmm Well screw that god in my opinion.

As my childhood progressed I was bounced from person to person and religion to religion. Seeing the extremes was what made me the open person I am today. I am open to anything... all you have to do is show me some evidence, some proof. The bible as it stands is NOT PROOF of anything. Just because the origins of the book lie 2000+ years in the past, no one today has a 2000+ year old copy of the bible in its entirety, and it was pieced together from other writings to begin with. Inspired? Maybe... Proof of God.... Not exactly.

But to simplify the argument, just reverse it. Lets say you grew up in a world where 50+ percent of everyone where outspoken atheists, and you found a 1000 year old book about some god... would you expect anyone to believe you?

I think not.

Its the diversity of religions that makes the argument interesting for me, and keeps me going down the path of questioning faith year after year. Having known "nuts" makes it a more memorable journey.

These are my thoughts exactly and I had an identical experience. Growing up going to church, going to christian schools of different varieties, it all lead to me one day saying "Lol none of this makes any sense and "faith" is not enough, thre are lots of groups that ask me to have "faith" in their particular brand of crazy but I don't have the capacity to believe in something for which there isn't even a shred of evidence.

[sgreger1]

[lxskllr]

That's a horrible painting. Who did it?

Edit:
Put some clothes on; and a mask! Also, get that fsckin' apple out of my face :^D

[TheJanitor]

I have been an atheist for as long as I can remember. I guess you could call me a reluctant atheist, as I would prefer to think I went to some paradise after death, as opposed to just rotting underground. But, for whatever reason I'm just not wired that way I guess. My wife is a christian, and she says all you have to do is believe, but she doesn't understand that I just can't. I tell her if there is a god, then he made me like this, to think this way, dooming me to hell, which doesn't really sound like a cool dude in my book anyway.

[Roo]

That's a horrible painting. Who did it?

Edit:
Put some clothes on; and a mask! Also, get that fsckin' apple out of my face :^D

That really is a horrible painting on every level. Look how ****ing ugly they are! Eve is one homely hootch! Funny how they are stark white and blond too. Mesopotamians with blond hair ...

[Crow]

They look like alien beings from another planet.

[sgreger1]

That really is a horrible painting on every level. Look how ****ing ugly they are! Eve is one homely hootch! Funny how they are stark white and blond too. Mesopotamians with blond hair ...

Lol, it's kind of how Jesus looks different depending on what country the church is located in, sometimes he looks a little more mexican, a little Korean, completely white, or in some churches he is black.

Probably not a whole lot of pale blonde folks strolling around Mesopotamia at the beginning of creating. And probably an equally small number of pale white guys in Bethleham around the time of Christ. But God works in mysterious ways so who am I to judge

[wa3zrm]

Spirituality Is Key To Kids' Happiness, Study Suggests

ScienceDaily — New study suggests spirituality, not religious practices, determine how happy children are.


To make children happier, we may need to encourage them to develop a strong sense of personal worth, according to Dr. Mark Holder from the University of British Columbia in Canada and his colleagues Dr. Ben Coleman and Judi Wallace. Their research shows that children who feel that their lives have meaning and value and who develop deep, quality relationships - both measures of spirituality - are happier. It would appear, however, that their religious practices have little effect on their happiness. These findings have been published in the online edition of Springer's Journal of Happiness Studies.

Both spirituality (an inner belief system that a person relies on for strength and comfort) and religiousness (institutional religious rituals, practices and beliefs) have been linked to increased happiness in adults and adolescents. In contrast, very little work has been done on younger children. In an effort to identify strategies to increase children's happiness, Holder and colleagues set out to better understand the nature of the relationship between spirituality, religiousness and happiness in children aged 8 to 12 years. A total of 320 children, from four public schools and two faith-based schools, completed six different questionnaires to rate their happiness, their spirituality, their religiousness and their temperament. Parents were also asked to rate their child's happiness and temperament.
The authors found that those children who said they were more spiritual were happier. In particular, the personal (i.e. meaning and value in one's own life) and communal (i.e. quality and depth of inter-personal relationships) aspects of spirituality were strong predictors of children's happiness. Spirituality explained up to 27 percent of the differences in happiness levels amongst children.
A child's temperament was also an important predictor of happiness. In particular, happier children were more sociable and less shy. The relationship between spirituality and happiness remained strong, even when the authors took temperament into account. However, counter intuitively, religious practices - including attending church, praying and meditating - had little effect on a child's happiness.
According to the authors, "enhancing personal meaning may be a key factor in the relation between spirituality and happiness." They suggest that strategies aimed at increasing personal meaning in children - such as expressing kindness towards others and recording these acts of kindness, as well as acts of altruism and volunteering - may help to make children happier.