Socialism - The Political Party We Need

[lxskllr]

The Libertarians are turning Communist?!?!?!

:^O

That's perfectly in tune with libertarian philosophy. Libertarians allow people to live as they wish. If they choose to group together under a communist system, that's perfectly acceptable as long as it isn't mandated from the top. Libertarian is the party of freedom. You won't find a better deal anywhere else :^)

[Ephemeris]

That's perfectly in tune with libertarian philosophy. Libertarians allow people to live as they wish. If they choose to group together under a communist system, that's perfectly acceptable as long as it isn't mandated from the top. Libertarian is the party of freedom. You won't find a better deal anywhere else :^)

Quoted for truth!

[Ainkor]

The only partially successful implementation that I can think of is Sweden, who have the "middle way" doctrine- 50% capitalism balanced with 50% socialism. It used to work, until the droves of of poor immigrants from other countries bumrushed the country and threw the balance off. Now Sweden is finding out that socialism isn't that awesome when you've got more mouths at the tit than milk to go around.

Interesting. While I'm not advocating China, there is something to be said about capitalism tempered by another form of governance. Let's be real here though, America is chocked full of socialist principles and programs. Public schools, police departments, fire departments, department of health, social security, medicare and on and on. Where we get into trouble is when people try and be up front about it. Each of those programs take from (almost) everyone and spreads the benefit / use to others. I say the real issue is lobbyists. Make it a rule that any bill introduced has to be hand written by the introducing legislator. That should stuff some sanity back in the legislative branch

[Dirty Hippy]

This should get interesting.............

Bust out the Orville Redenbacher Crow. Take a seat as this should get very interesting

Here's some question's for everyone to ponder.

1. "I'd rather not work and suckle along side the other parasites"

What about those who have to work three jobs to feed their children and are still under the poverty line?

2. "Wake up and stop looking to the government to solve societies problems"

You mean the billionaire's who pay their worker's minimum wage are going to solve them?

3. "Our taxes are being horribly mismanaged and squandered."

Yep, that unemployment compensation is sure a terrible thing....

4. " To me the answer is smaller government"

Business deregulation is sure helping us out......(Ross Perot predicted NAFTA would **** our economy....he was right)

5. "Socialism leads to mediocrity and lack of innovation."

Swedish Snus is not innovative? it came from Sweden! Or do you mean dogshit skoal is better because capitalism made it?

6. Our taxes are being horribly mismanaged and squandered.

Medicare and Social Security don't help people either I suppose....

7. When will capable human beings take responsibility for their own condition?

We already do, its nature, when will people start caring about each other? The comments from this board make me think that will never happen...

[Ephemeris]

Bust out the Orville Redenbacher Crow. Take a seat as this should get very interesting

Here's some question's for everyone to ponder.

1. "I'd rather not work and suckle along side the other parasites"

What about those who have to work three jobs to feed their children and are still under the poverty line?

How would socialism fix this scenario? It sucks being poor, trust me, I know. It sucks even worse when you're denied social program benefits because you're the wrong color, the wrong sex or you don't have enough children. Parasitic bottom feeders have ruined a legitimate welfare relief that spirals ever downward the more socialized it becomes.

When a man is unable to work and feed his family for legitimate reasons, he is better off going to a church/charity/non-government funded handout in order to receive aid. A government that is big enough to feed you, school you, clothe you and house you is a government that we should endeavor to avoid.

2. "Wake up and stop looking to the government to solve societies problems"

You mean the billionaire's who pay their worker's minimum wage are going to solve them?

Why don't the minimum wage workers strive to become billionaires themselves? Not possible under socialism. Everyone is equally mediocre. That's as unfair to Ross Perot (a billionaire that you quote further down) as it is to the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's.

3. "Our taxes are being horribly mismanaged and squandered."

Yep, that unemployment compensation is sure a terrible thing....

Our taxes have been horribly mismanaged and squandered for 200 years. For every dollar that goes into unemployment, you have forty million dollars going into government programs like "affirmative action" or "public education," both of which are just two examples of the failed attempts at the government trying to socialize aspects of our lives.

4. " To me the answer is smaller government"

Business deregulation is sure helping us out......(Ross Perot predicted NAFTA would **** our economy....he was right)

Free trade is always a good thing. Sure, it sucks that China owns most of America, but that has nothing to do with business deregulation. It all falls back on the American people, who decided years ago that it was better to buy a cheaper product imported from Asia than it was to buy a product made in America. The Ross Perot's and Mitt Romney's of the world said, "gee, if Americans are willing to settle for mediocrity, then we can just close down half of the production in the US and ship it to China, where we can make money hand over fist."

Then you have groups like workers unions who insist that they should be paid $80 an hour to put hubcaps on Buicks, and the idiots that pay them. Or the CEOs that take a government bailout and then go on a million dollar cruise to the Bahamas.

Socialism solves none of these problems.

5. "Socialism leads to mediocrity and lack of innovation."

Swedish Snus is not innovative? it came from Sweden! Or do you mean dogshit skoal is better because capitalism made it?

Snus is innovative, sure. But it was created during a monarchy. The industry was later taken completely over by the socialist Tobacco Monopoly in order to fund another war with Denmark or Norway, leaving thousands out of work and immigrating to the USA, where they stood a decent chance of making a living and producing innovative new products like Copenhagen and Skoal, like they did in Sweden before the government stole over their farms and businesses. (See also: Castro and the cigar industry takeover in Cuba).

6. Our taxes are being horribly mismanaged and squandered.

Medicare and Social Security don't help people either I suppose....

You've repeated point #3 and given it a different answer. Medicare and Social Security are in need of a major overhaul. This is a good example of where social programs fail when handled by the federal government.

7. When will capable human beings take responsibility for their own condition?

We already do, its nature, when will people start caring about each other? The comments from this board make me think that will never happen...

If history has proven one thing, it's that when the government FORCES its citizenry to "play fair", the exact opposite occurs. It's also a common argument that many communist/socialist/liberals use to paint those that are in favor of absolute freedom as "cruel and uncaring" because they'd rather not have the government force them into being charitable. I'm indignant when the government takes half of my income and then does something like create a redundant cash pit like SCHIP to throw more money at families that are already eligible for other social programs that accomplish the same goal. But I have no problem volunteering at a soup kitchen or buying clothes for homeless people because I genuinely want to help humanity on some small scale. This is something the government can not accomplish by tax/spend welfare state shenanigans.

[spinyeel]

There are 2 countries on this rock with booming economies. China and Germany. They both have a strong manufacturing industry. German wages and working conditions are amongst the best in the world and they are STILL competing with the Chinese,who rely on slave labour and a blatant disregard for human rights. We all need to pull our heads in and have a good think about the direction that we are heading in.

[rickcharles606]

How would socialism fix this scenario? It sucks being poor, trust me, I know. It sucks even worse when you're denied social program benefits because you're the wrong color, the wrong sex or you don't have enough children. Parasitic bottom feeders have ruined a legitimate welfare relief that spirals ever downward the more socialized it becomes.

When a man is unable to work and feed his family for legitimate reasons, he is better off going to a church/charity/non-government funded handout in order to receive aid. A government that is big enough to feed you, school you, clothe you and house you is a government that we should endeavor to avoid.



Why don't the minimum wage workers strive to become billionaires themselves? Not possible under socialism. Everyone is equally mediocre. That's as unfair to Ross Perot (a billionaire that you quote further down) as it is to the guy flipping burgers at McDonald's.



Our taxes have been horribly mismanaged and squandered for 200 years. For every dollar that goes into unemployment, you have forty million dollars going into government programs like "affirmative action" or "public education," both of which are just two examples of the failed attempts at the government trying to socialize aspects of our lives.



Free trade is always a good thing. Sure, it sucks that China owns most of America, but that has nothing to do with business deregulation. It all falls back on the American people, who decided years ago that it was better to buy a cheaper product imported from Asia than it was to buy a product made in America. The Ross Perot's and Mitt Romney's of the world said, "gee, if Americans are willing to settle for mediocrity, then we can just close down half of the production in the US and ship it to China, where we can make money hand over fist."

Then you have groups like workers unions who insist that they should be paid $80 an hour to put hubcaps on Buicks, and the idiots that pay them. Or the CEOs that take a government bailout and then go on a million dollar cruise to the Bahamas.

Socialism solves none of these problems.



Snus is innovative, sure. But it was created during a monarchy. The industry was later taken completely over by the socialist Tobacco Monopoly in order to fund another war with Denmark or Norway, leaving thousands out of work and immigrating to the USA, where they stood a decent chance of making a living and producing innovative new products like Copenhagen and Skoal, like they did in Sweden before the government stole over their farms and businesses. (See also: Castro and the cigar industry takeover in Cuba).



You've repeated point #3 and given it a different answer. Medicare and Social Security are in need of a major overhaul. This is a good example of where social programs fail when handled by the federal government.



If history has proven one thing, it's that when the government FORCES its citizenry to "play fair", the exact opposite occurs. It's also a common argument that many communist/socialist/liberals use to paint those that are in favor of absolute freedom as "cruel and uncaring" because they'd rather not have the government force them into being charitable. I'm indignant when the government takes half of my income and then does something like create a redundant cash pit like SCHIP to throw more money at families that are already eligible for other social programs that accomplish the same goal. But I have no problem volunteering at a soup kitchen or buying clothes for homeless people because I genuinely want to help humanity on some small scale. This is something the government can not accomplish by tax/spend welfare state shenanigans.

***perfect*** thanks for taking the time to stem the tide of bullshit that was being spewed on this thread ;-)

[crullers]

Seems to me that there is a lot of bullshit hitting me from the right. It will be interesting to see how your election will turn out. I hope it works out well for the good people of the U.S.

[Ainkor]

I'll say this, because one side of me wants people to not have the hard times I have had to go through, but I've realized over the years that this isn't the way it gets fixed.

We are arguing two different points here, from what I see. First point is supporting the general welfare of our fellow man. I feel that is a legitimate goal of the government, as a safety net. Not a regular course of action. A father that can't work should be taken care of. A man who won't work shouldn't.

Where it gets sticky is that the rich get richer by virtue of a government system that rewards unethical behavior. High reward - low risk behavior that allows a company to make millions (Or billions) will allow people to take advantage of it. It takes money to make money though. I could probably scape together $10,000 but even investing that money wisely will not make me rich quickly. There are many examples of connected people investing money and making HUGE returns that the average person couldn't ever hope to get (take Facebook's IPO as an example).

Also, combined with the "Have money to make money" you have large businesses who take advantage of dumb people (see the collapse of the economy - sub-prime lending which was allowed by government demanding equal opportunity in lending) and you have people who can take advantage of big loophole.

My reality is this. I was homeless at 17 with a kid on the way. I got a job and my then girlfriend now wife of 22 years and I went to the welfare office to get some help. They told me that I worked too much (over 35 hours a week). That pissed me the hell off after seeing people sit on their asses on welfare. I busted my ass at work and earned a promotion and have been making more money that my father every year since I was 19. I did that by being willing to do what most people weren't. I've often thought of ways that I can give back to those who are less fortunate and here is what I've come up with:

Expect excellence, give them the information needed to be excellent and get the **** out of their way. The good do it, the posers don't. I can't help anyone, all I can do is point the way through my example. If you're not willing to work more than 40 hours a week, don't bitch to me that I promoted someone else. Most of the promotions I give are simply put life changing. When you promote someone from $10 an hour to a $40,000 a year salaried position, you are giving them the capability to literally change their life.

But the reality is this. I'll use an example I hear all the time.

Person: "Hey Mr. Bossman, I want a raise/promotion"

Me: "Ok, I have this opportunity for a salaried position for $550 a week starting."

Person: "Cool, what do I have to do?"

Me: "Work 45 hours a week and grow the business where you work. Control costs and train those around you. Keep the store clean and most of all, have fun with it"

Person: "45 hours a week? Damn, how will I play Xbox 360 then?"

So what they are really asking for is more money without having to put in the effort and that is the American problem in a nut shell.

[hokiehi82]

I'll say this, because one side of me wants people to not have the hard times I have had to go through, but I've realized over the years that this isn't the way it gets fixed.

We are arguing two different points here, from what I see. First point is supporting the general welfare of our fellow man. I feel that is a legitimate goal of the government, as a safety net. Not a regular course of action. A father that can't work should be taken care of. A man who won't work shouldn't.

Where it gets sticky is that the rich get richer by virtue of a government system that rewards unethical behavior. High reward - low risk behavior that allows a company to make millions (Or billions) will allow people to take advantage of it. It takes money to make money though. I could probably scape together $10,000 but even investing that money wisely will not make me rich quickly. There are many examples of connected people investing money and making HUGE returns that the average person couldn't ever hope to get (take Facebook's IPO as an example).

Also, combined with the "Have money to make money" you have large businesses who take advantage of dumb people (see the collapse of the economy - sub-prime lending which was allowed by government demanding equal opportunity in lending) and you have people who can take advantage of big loophole.

My reality is this. I was homeless at 17 with a kid on the way. I got a job and my then girlfriend now wife of 22 years and I went to the welfare office to get some help. They told me that I worked too much (over 35 hours a week). That pissed me the hell off after seeing people sit on their asses on welfare. I busted my ass at work and earned a promotion and have been making more money that my father every year since I was 19. I did that by being willing to do what most people weren't. I've often thought of ways that I can give back to those who are less fortunate and here is what I've come up with:

Expect excellence, give them the information needed to be excellent and get the **** out of their way. The good do it, the posers don't. I can't help anyone, all I can do is point the way through my example. If you're not willing to work more than 40 hours a week, don't bitch to me that I promoted someone else. Most of the promotions I give are simply put life changing. When you promote someone from $10 an hour to a $40,000 a year salaried position, you are giving them the capability to literally change their life.

But the reality is this. I'll use an example I hear all the time.

Person: "Hey Mr. Bossman, I want a raise/promotion"

Me: "Ok, I have this opportunity for a salaried position for $550 a week starting."

Person: "Cool, what do I have to do?"

Me: "Work 45 hours a week and grow the business where you work. Control costs and train those around you. Keep the store clean and most of all, have fun with it"

Person: "45 hours a week? Damn, how will I play Xbox 360 then?"

So what they are really asking for is more money without having to put in the effort and that is the American problem in a nut shell.

Bravo Ainkor. You win all the internets for that post. It's hard for me to watch people in my area do absolutely nothing, knowing that there are guvment programs to pull their ass out of the fire. I have heard a lot of people complain about going to try to get a little bit of help only to be advised to cut down on their overtime to fit under the maximum income requirements.
I know that jobs are tight now, but people shouldn't expect to have a pie job handed to them with no effort put forth on their behalf.

[Crow]

You guys are lucky I'm not the argumentative type.

:^D

-------------

I will say this: On some level, I can understand the American conservative's point of view (excluding the Christian fundamentalists, of course). But, I feel it's incompatible in this day and age. Much like communism is incompatible in this day and age.

............. Oh, and I don't have a problem with taxation; but I'll admit that in some areas, it's being spent on bullshit. The scales need to be tilted more in society's favor in order to prosper.

[Reynard]

There needs to be a political party who's guiding principle and central tenet is the unconditional love for all beings. Until that happens, there will be new faces but essentially the same incarnations of thirst for power, greed and deceit.

[Crow]

Digging the new sig, Vulpes.

[Reynard]

Digging the new sig, Vulpes.

Did I mention? I'm a fan of Kava
Hehe

[squeezyjohn]

I'll say this, because one side of me wants people to not have the hard times I have had to go through, but I've realized over the years that this isn't the way it gets fixed.

We are arguing two different points here, from what I see. First point is supporting the general welfare of our fellow man. I feel that is a legitimate goal of the government, as a safety net. Not a regular course of action. A father that can't work should be taken care of. A man who won't work shouldn't.

Where it gets sticky is that the rich get richer by virtue of a government system that rewards unethical behavior. High reward - low risk behavior that allows a company to make millions (Or billions) will allow people to take advantage of it. It takes money to make money though. I could probably scape together $10,000 but even investing that money wisely will not make me rich quickly. There are many examples of connected people investing money and making HUGE returns that the average person couldn't ever hope to get (take Facebook's IPO as an example).

Also, combined with the "Have money to make money" you have large businesses who take advantage of dumb people (see the collapse of the economy - sub-prime lending which was allowed by government demanding equal opportunity in lending) and you have people who can take advantage of big loophole.

My reality is this. I was homeless at 17 with a kid on the way. I got a job and my then girlfriend now wife of 22 years and I went to the welfare office to get some help. They told me that I worked too much (over 35 hours a week). That pissed me the hell off after seeing people sit on their asses on welfare. I busted my ass at work and earned a promotion and have been making more money that my father every year since I was 19. I did that by being willing to do what most people weren't. I've often thought of ways that I can give back to those who are less fortunate and here is what I've come up with:

Expect excellence, give them the information needed to be excellent and get the **** out of their way. The good do it, the posers don't. I can't help anyone, all I can do is point the way through my example. If you're not willing to work more than 40 hours a week, don't bitch to me that I promoted someone else. Most of the promotions I give are simply put life changing. When you promote someone from $10 an hour to a $40,000 a year salaried position, you are giving them the capability to literally change their life.

But the reality is this. I'll use an example I hear all the time.

Person: "Hey Mr. Bossman, I want a raise/promotion"

Me: "Ok, I have this opportunity for a salaried position for $550 a week starting."

Person: "Cool, what do I have to do?"

Me: "Work 45 hours a week and grow the business where you work. Control costs and train those around you. Keep the store clean and most of all, have fun with it"

Person: "45 hours a week? Damn, how will I play Xbox 360 then?"

So what they are really asking for is more money without having to put in the effort and that is the American problem in a nut shell.

Great post Aiknor!

The revolutionary socialist in me would like to disagree ... but as a self employed person of 11 years and counting I can't disagree with a single word there. It's all true.

For me ... it would be better if instead of national service for the young adults of society, they were obliged to be self-employed for a year. That would change every single employed person's attitude to the job they have for the rest of their life ... and it would change it for the better because they would understand for the rest of their lives where the salary that drives their lives comes from - and how hard it is to make the money in the first place.

I still believe that people who fall on hard times should be guaranteed a way back in by the society they live in - and I don't have enough faith in the good-heartedness of other human beings to do that without any government intervention. So I reckon that I am still socialist in ideology ... however it always breaks down because the average responsibility of the man in the street is so low that they will only take the piss out of any program that helps them - making my view on politics useless. So all I can hope for is for education and self-betterment to become the next trend everyone wants to follow.

It's hard eh?