The Origins of Christmas

[precious007]

Since Christmas is near I send everyone the warmest wishes -

Christmas Countdown - http://www.xmasclock.com/ :-)

The Origins of Christmas - http://www.alldocumentaries.org/the-...-of-christmas/

Hope you guys enjoy the film :P

Al.

[bill77.017]

Happy Christmas to you too Precious007 : ) Cool links brother.

[precious007]

Happy Christmas to you too Precious007 : ) Cool links brother.

Thanks ! Merry Jolly Christmas buddy! :--)

[Snusdog]

Precious good to see you posting

Merry Christmas mate

[CzechCzar]

This begs the question.

[CzechCzar]

Specifically, it assumes there was no factual basis behind the person of Jesus of Nazarerth. Though I will agree with you that the actual date in December is completely arbitrary.

[Crow]

Since Christmas is near I send everyone the warmest wishes -

Christmas Countdown - http://www.xmasclock.com/ :-)

The Origins of Christmas - http://www.alldocumentaries.org/the-...-of-christmas/

Hope you guys enjoy the film :P

Al.

[CzechCzar]

Umm, references to Christ may be found in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus, Lucian, Mara Bar-Serapion, the Jewish Talmud, Tranquillas, , Pliny the Younger, Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, Tertullian, Origen... These are only the best non-Christian sources. Many initial skeptics (Saul of Tarsus, James) were converted after Christ's death. We have more, and better, historical data for Christ's life than we have for Alexander the Great, or the Trojan War, or any other ancient historical event.

The Talmud says that Jesus' disciples stole the body, which is a very odd claim to make unless you are trying to discredit the empty tomb. It's not like Jesus was invented ala Scientology. There is no reason whatsoever that a bunch of devout Jews would convert to an illegal religion on pain of death, unless there was some truth to it.

[CzechCzar]

Find JoN on any official documented census from that time...its okay, I'll wait.

forget about it and enjoy your pacifier.

you like snus and that's good enough.

Right. Got it. First you backhandedly asked for evidence. I gave you plenty. Then you followed up with an ad hominem. I think I see where this is going...

Seriously, I am not trying to force you to believe, as that is a personal choice. But appealing to the theory that Jesus was a myth is retarded. This theory was abandoned by scholars in the 19th century due to insurmountable difficulties. The vast majority of New Testament historians today, be they Christians, Jews, Moslems, atheists, whatever, agree that Jesus Christ was a real person. The only places where this theory is given any credence whatsoever, nowadays, is on the more extreme atheist forums. Which is a count against it.

[Valknut]

Right. Got it. First you backhandedly asked for evidence. I gave you plenty. Then you followed up with an ad hominem. I think I see where this is going...

Seriously, I am not trying to force you to believe, as that is a personal choice. But appealing to the theory that Jesus was a myth is retarded. This theory was abandoned by scholars in the 19th century due to insurmountable difficulties. The vast majority of New Testament historians today, be they Christians, Jews, Moslems, atheists, whatever, agree that Jesus Christ was a real person. The only places where this theory is given any credence whatsoever, nowadays, is on the more extreme atheist forums. Which is a count against it.

it seems that i have upset you and that is unfortunate.
i have removed both of my posts so that i do not cause you any more grief.

however, in the future, maybe you shouldn't bring up a topic if you can't handle people talking to you about it: "Specifically, it assumes there was no factual basis behind the person of Jesus of Nazarerth."

relax, snus, smile, repeat!

[CzechCzar]

I'm not really upset at all. I am somewhat irked that you tried to justify your beliefs with an amateur theory that has been discredited for the better part of 200 years, and then, when I pointed this out, asserted that I could use religion as my pacifier, essentially throwing in an ad hominem. Atheism is a defensible position, philosophically speaking. You can throw out the argument from evil, and most theists won't have a clue how to respond. But the rhetorical tactics you employed above were not academically developed. Indeed, they belittled theism, which is also an eminently defensible position.

[spirit72]

Umm, references to Christ may be found in the writings of Josephus, Tacitus, Lucian, Mara Bar-Serapion, the Jewish Talmud, Tranquillas, , Pliny the Younger, Clement, Polycarp, Ignatius, Tertullian, Origen... These are only the best non-Christian sources. Many initial skeptics (Saul of Tarsus, James) were converted after Christ's death. We have more, and better, historical data for Christ's life than we have for Alexander the Great, or the Trojan War, or any other ancient historical event.

The Talmud says that Jesus' disciples stole the body, which is a very odd claim to make unless you are trying to discredit the empty tomb. It's not like Jesus was invented ala Scientology. There is no reason whatsoever that a bunch of devout Jews would convert to an illegal religion on pain of death, unless there was some truth to it.

Very well said...

[CzechCzar]

Many thanks. It is somewhat annoying that atheists are able to dismiss Christians with silly pop-theories like "Jesus did not actually exist, and was mythologized based upon pagan Gods," and get away with it in American culture. This does not piss me off, because how can I expect them to have read up on the scholarly literature? What infuriates me is how ignorant Christians are of the basic facts surrounding the Resurrection. By operating solely off of "how we feel" we are abandoning a Biblical command:

"but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence..." (1 Peter 3:15) We are commanded to be able to provide an intelligent reason for our faith, yet the vast majority of us can do no such thing.

The reality is that a bunch of devout Jews would never, ever, in a million years, even consider snipping these quasi-messianic texts from other religions, because they were Jews! Their (and my) God Yaweh was conceived as the one true God... stealing other religions' gods would have been anathema to them. They would never, ever, have considered it. And yet, we have evidence of Jews (and gentiles) worshiping the Christ - which means, coincidentally, The Messiah within 10 years of Jesus' execution, and risking death as a result. Indeed, the story of the early Church, up until the conversion of the Roman empire, is one of the systematic execution of Christians. Many people went to their death for this belief. As such, this belief is not plausibly based upon a myth, or a hoax, or any of the other amateur theories thrown about...

Very well said...

[SnusoMatic]

Many thanks. It is somewhat annoying that atheists are able to dismiss Christians with silly pop-theories like "Jesus did not actually exist, and was mythologized based upon pagan Gods," and get away with it in American culture. This does not piss me off, because how can I expect them to have read up on the scholarly literature? What infuriates me is how ignorant Christians are of the basic facts surrounding the Resurrection. By operating solely off of "how we feel" we are abandoning a Biblical command:

"but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence..." (1 Peter 3:15) We are commanded to be able to provide an intelligent reason for our faith, yet the vast majority of us can do no such thing.

The reality is that a bunch of devout Jews would never, ever, in a million years, even consider snipping these quasi-messianic texts from other religions, because they were Jews! Their (and my) God Yaweh was conceived as the one true God... stealing other religions' gods would have been anathema to them. They would never, ever, have considered it. And yet, we have evidence of Jews (and gentiles) worshiping the Christ - which means, coincidentally, The Messiah within 10 years of Jesus' execution, and risking death as a result. Indeed, the story of the early Church, up until the conversion of the Roman empire, is one of the systematic execution of Christians. Many people went to their death for this belief. As such, this belief is not plausibly based upon a myth, or a hoax, or any of the other amateur theories thrown about...

I agree with you 110%. Here's the thing. If you say anything about Jesus at snuson you can expect some off the cuff remark. Most of the time you will get a comment that belongs in the third grade. if you reply to that comment with any sort of sense their reply will be something that defies discussion. You will always be expected to "prove" anything you say and they almost never even try to backup anything they say except with silly jabs.

Saying that there is no historical backing of a "person" named Jesus shows how little a person saying it has studied the subject. If a person chooses to say there is no God then yea they might argue that point. Expecting a census showing Jesus lives..... right. I can't even find a census showing my dad lived.

The way many get out of backing up what they say is by insulting you.

Just don't expect to be treated like you have a brain if you say something about religion if it rubs them the wrong way.

Far as Christmas goes, most of what people in usa (i cant say about other places) celebrate is based on pagan stuff. Does that mean Jesus was never born? No it means that a bunch of pagans went into the church and carried their celebrations with them. There is nothing at all in the Bible about celebrating Christmas. Do I do Christmas? Yea because it is traditional not because it's Jesus' birthday. For that matter, Paganism is all through our culture. Most of this is known by studied Christians already so to put out a "documentary" to "expose" those things means nothing. Maybe the person documenting just found those things out and because they have no other information they think they have a "secret".

I am not after non-believers. I don't mean to insult non-believers either. Did I say all church people are Christians? uhh no. Someone else said that. Sometimes non-Christians like to say all we want to do is force something on you. Not me. It may be hard to believe but Jesus said point blank not to do that. Those people who try to force it on you have not read their Bible and "may not" be Christians.


Merry Christmas!

[CzechCzar]

Agreed 100%. The above example is a good one, I think, of what goes on in snuson and America at large. When I, an admitted Christian, provided actual non-Biblical evidence of Jesus, all I got was a dismissive "enjoy your pacifier". That won't cut it; the burden of proof has now shifted to your side. I have given you documented evidence for Jesus, indeed evidence of a greater quality and quantity than we have for any other ancient historical figure. Saying a snide remark like that just makes your side look foolish.

This isn't their fault, mind you. This is just the kind of mind our post-modern, scientific culture has inculcated: one that treats science as the Gospel, and discounts every kind of knowledge that cannot be proved by the scientific method. As Christians, or theists for that matter, we have to be ready to show the culture the error of that kind of thinking.

Regarding Christmas, I agree 100%. To Christians, Christmas isn't even that big a deal. The real holiday is Easter, and the holy week preceding it.

I agree with you 110%. Here's the thing. If you say anything about Jesus at snuson you can expect some off the cuff remark. Most of the time you will get a comment that belongs in the third grade. if you reply to that comment with any sort of sense their reply will be something that defies discussion. You will always be expected to "prove" anything you say and they almost never even try to backup anything they say except with silly jabs.

Saying that there is no historical backing of a "person" named Jesus shows how little a person saying it has studied the subject. If a person chooses to say there is no God then yea they might argue that point. Expecting a census showing Jesus lives..... right. I can't even find a census showing my dad lived.

The way many get out of backing up what they say is by insulting you.

Just don't expect to be treated like you have a brain if you say something about religion if it rubs them the wrong way.

Far as Christmas goes, most of what people in usa (i cant say about other places) celebrate is based on pagan stuff. Does that mean Jesus was never born? No it means that a bunch of pagans went into the church and carried their celebrations with them. There is nothing at all in the Bible about celebrating Christmas. Do I do Christmas? Yea because it is traditional not because it's Jesus' birthday. For that matter, Paganism is all through our culture. Most of this is known by studied Christians already so to put out a "documentary" to "expose" those things means nothing. Maybe the person documenting just found those things out and because they have no other information they think they have a "secret".

I am not after non-believers. I don't mean to insult non-believers either. Did I say all church people are Christians? uhh no. Someone else said that. Sometimes non-Christians like to say all we want to do is force something on you. Not me. It may be hard to believe but Jesus said point blank not to do that. Those people who try to force it on you have not read their Bible and "may not" be Christians.


Merry Christmas!