So... N-Korea?

[Roo]

Well that was tidy, lol. Much love Snuson, and Frosted, And to you GN!!

GN I have been DYYYYINGGG to get my Odens order from UPS. I was stupid and ordered last Thursday, not realizing that Swedes get the entire month off of work for Easter haha. Today it was supposed to be delivered but no one was home to sign for it! I am desperate, I have been using General for DAYS now and I fkng hate it so much. It's truly awful in my opinion. And SM snus hurts my gums. Garbage all around. Anyway, I called UPS and I can drive about 10 miles to pick up my Odens at 19:00 tonight! Woooooooo

PS GN: hassle Rick to make sure more stores are carrying Odens!! All the stores around here think it is satisfactory to carry 5,000 cans of General, 1 can of Blue Ocean (??) and that's it. Need more ODENS. :*

[Crow]

Ok, fair enough. Bush's action against Iraq was unfounded but let's see if you are consistant when it come to Obama's war in Libya, his covert war in Yemen, his proxy war in Somalia, his drone attacks in Pakistan, his escalation of the war in Afghanistan, his sending troops into Niger to set up a drone base, and Obama giving $50 million to France to conduct an war of empire in Mali.


Did you know that US forces are in 35 of 52 African nations right now? Did you know that Obama has sent US Special Forces into 75 nations?

I'm not even getting into Obama's criminal and anti-liberal domestic policies. At best, Obama is just a continuation of Bush and at worst he's many times worse.

You Obama supporters can either admit you didn't know about that stuff or admit you are propaganda organs for the facists. There's nothing political about the facts.

Comparing Iraq (a full-scale occupation that was firmly opposed by the UN) to Libya (airspace security, strategic target of war machines with some indirect support to the opposition [then NTC]), Yemen (target of Al-Qaeda presence with drone strikes), and Somalia (combatting piracy and ensuring the security of naval ships) is a huge overreach. Yes, I am aware of our presence in foreign nations. I'm also aware of our need to do so.

-------------

Using the North Korean conflict as an example (since that's the subject of this thread): I can say with some degree of confidence that the Japanese and South Koreans don't want us to leave. Sure, there's protests by a few thousand people here and there, but I would say that the majority of the populace (and the government, surely) wants us to maintain presence and defend their nations should the DPRK attempt to lob nukes at either country.

[Nuusku]

Thanks for the replies guys.

[Crow]

Sure thing bud. As you can see, it's a very open-ended question. You'll always get a different answer and opinion.

[lxskllr]

Using the North Korean conflict as an example (since that's the subject of this thread): I can say with some degree of confidence that the Japanese and South Koreans don't want us to leave. Sure, there's protests by a few thousand people here and there, but I would say that the majority of the populace (and the government, surely) wants us to maintain presence and defend their nations should the DPRK attempt to lob nukes at either country.

Yea, free shit's great. Maybe Samsung can send every American an Android tablet in exchange for our protection.

We're unfortunately tied to Korea due to past promises during the red scare. It wasn't our problem then, and it isn't our problem now. We need to fulfill our obligation, and get out. We don't have the resources to give the world free shit anymore.

[Skell18]

Frosted you know I love you but seriously, get real mate. When closed minded travelers -- and come on, hopefully you yourself can admit to being one -- say some place is a "dump", it cannot be taken the least bit seriously. Especially about South Korea. Now had you said "I've been to Dushanbe Tajikistan 4 times and trust me, it's a dump" I would chalk it up to our differences and not question you or call you out. But come ON.... Seoul is extremely modern, historically rich, monetarily rich, extremely safe, and if nothing else, a place where MFRs watch live television on their massive cell phones. Do you do that? Knowing your military background I assume you spent those sojourns at the DMZ, with trips to and from Incheon most likely. Anyway... before you get too upset, let me be clear that I was born there and lived there for a time later on, and I also know damn well apart from that, that S. Korea is not a dump by any means.

I dislike it when people write off an entire nation because they had a lousy time there in the 90s, so I had to say something. Peace brother, and respect.

This! I loved ans still love SK, Seoul was and is an amazing place to visit.

[Crow]

Yea, free shit's great. Maybe Samsung can send every American an Android tablet in exchange for our protection.

We're unfortunately tied to Korea due to past promises during the red scare. It wasn't our problem then, and it isn't our problem now. We need to fulfill our obligation, and get out. We don't have the resources to give the world free shit anymore.

I think you're mixing up your terminology there. Red scare refers to the promotion of anti-Communist sentiment (and to an extent, this applies to McCarthyism as well).

We were competing with the USSR at the time. It sounds to me like you would have allowed the Soviets to expand their influence with no intervention. That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. But, I believe if we had done that; we would be living in a very different, perhaps dark, world.

[lxskllr]

I think you're mixing up your terminology there. Red scare refers to the promotion of anti-Communist sentiment (and to an extent, this applies to McCarthyism as well).

You're probably right. I gave it wider use than I should have. But it was still fear of the dreaded commies that sent us all over the world getting into the business of sovereign nations. As far as the spread of communism goes, I don't see that it was our problem. Choosing to make it our problem should have given us territory. Communism was the big boogyman we had before terrorism. It's just an excuse for the military complex to sell the government a bunch of crap we don't need.

[Darwin]

The food and fuel situation must be considerably worse than usual in N. Korea. The normal pattern is that when its situation becomes desperate enough then whatever inbred moron is running the country whips it up into a frothing fever of aggressiveness and rattles its rusty sabers loudly enough so that the West will get nervous enough to cave to its demands for food and fuel relief. Going to the rhetorical wall as intensely as they are doing now must mean that the country is at, or maybe even past, the final breaking point. Naked bribery of this sort has always worked before but since the west is becoming immune to such putrid histrionics the Nork "leadership" is having to turn the volume up to eleven.

N.K. is somewhat of a physical threat to S.Korea but it is an enormous threat to the economies of both them and China who will have to take the ruined cesspit that is N. Korea to raise when it does finally collapse thereby costing them countless billions to clean up the horrible mess. Whatever damage any putative military attack causes will pale in comparison to what will have to be spent on salvaging the country and much tense wrangling will occur over who gets to foot most of the multi trillion yuan/won bill.

Note that China is also quietly moving military assets closer to N. Korea. They may well decide to be the principal invader of the country because they would be loathe to have an S.K./U.S. alliance calling all the shots in what they have long considered to be a chunk of their sphere of influence, however unruly and embarrassing it has become. That could be the real confrontation to worry our strategic noggins about. East Asia is living in decidedly "interesting" times.

[Frosted]

Listen to that wisdom.

[truthwolf1]

I have been waiting all day for this thing to get started. It looks like they gave a warning of April 10th for all who can to leave.

[Nuusku]

I'm constantly checking the news for more info

[whalen]

This is all theater, packaged to titillate.

[Thunder_Snus]

The whole North Korea thing has just got to be a pain in obamas ass. I dont like him but in all actuality, what a shitty situation to be in. The U.S has played the hero or attempted to be the hero while just being a nuisance in so much throughout history. So now what? We bomb the shit out of NK just to bring democracy to one small place or we stay uninvolved and any result is blamed for our non intervention. No matter what is done a large group of people are going to be hippies(protest) it, and a large group will support it. I think mister Un is having a huge Alexander complex, "how do i show i am greater than my father" and he is being completely irrational about how to accomplish this.

Realistically he is just a kid and no matter if its current times or way back in the past (king tut) someone at that age will not be thinking in a rational way, when you're growing up you wish you could go kick your own ass 3 years ago almost continually. The way the citizens of NK are treated in despicable and something SHOULD be done about it. Personally I think if NK was just absolutely surrounded by tanks and missiles and other scary things it would force their leader to step down and give more freedom to his people. But perhaps thats not right, I would really hate to say we should just bomb the shit out of it but then innocent lives are taken away. I recently watched a documentary called "kimjonglia" i believe on netflix and it really is eye opening on how society in north korea really is.



Alternative thought: Something i often think about is what would happen if there was a completely rational thinking superpower in the world. Would war stop? It's something i thought from playing the game civilization 4. If you are unfamiliar it is basically a game where you pick a civilization (mayans, greeks, americans, celts etc) and go throughout history with them. The ultimate goal is to do a few things, advance technologically quicker than other civilizations or be more advance military wise. Something I found really interesting atleast in a computer simulation is that when a superpower rises and other bow down to them war typically stops. For example, in one game I was the vikings, I slowly killed off a few civilizations and gained strength until i was the complete most powerful force to be reckonded with. When this happened every civilization looked to me for help, often this results in signing a defensive pact (if someone declares war on one of us we both go to war on them.) When this happens a peculiar situation unfolds. Every civlization has a defensive pact with me so noone will declare war on anyone for fear that i will attack if they declare war on anyone else. When a civilization is all powerful and will not declare war unless inclined to do so, everyone else just kind of falls in place and goes throughout history in peace with everyone else. Sometimes I wonder if that model would apply to the real world. If one country became so powerful and thought so rationally that noone declared war on anyone for fear that this superpower would end them.

[Crow]

Keep in mind: The family (and the employers, co-workers, etc.) in this documentary are acting under the direction of their government. But, it does provide a window to look into.

Sehr interessant.