Who are you supporting in the upcoming American election

[Link]

No one here will convince Zero that America has anything other than monetary motivations behind its foreign policies.
It is a shame to throw the baby out with the bath water because at the end of the day, you still have to ask yourself---as rabbitt has asked you---who else would you suggest for the job?
Russia?
Cuba?
China?
Saudi Arbaia?
Yemen?
Iran?
You yourself live in a country that's much more free than the very ones you defend against American policies, so think of Ideals and not money alone.
Isn't it ironic.......don't you think?

[Starcadia]

Old, Grizzled Third-Party Candidate May Steal Support From McCain

[Dead Rabbit]

"9/11 was spectacular, to be sure, but there is very little evidence connecting the incident with anyone. Most of the accused 19 have been verified to be very much alive and well in various countries around the world and have absolutely nothing to do with Al Qaeda. " -Zero

Zero....are you sure you don't want to retract that statement from the...uh....official snuson record? It's important everyone knows where you stand on this point. Even the very liberal Americans.

[kidstaxi]

I guess, I got bit vulgar with my edited post. I will not apologize for it niether. It was no less offensive than anything a certain person has posted.

This person probally has never had to sacrifice anything in his life. I can invision him sitting in a cafe, sipping his choice of caffine, and talking how bad the world is.

He has no clue how bad the world is. I bet he has never, walked into a trash pile that 500 people call home. Have the men of that trash pile, walk up crying, kissing your hands and face, and thanking you for finally liberating them from thier oppressers. This is something, that happened to me 42 times in a period of 16 months in Afganistan.

He also has no clue what it is like to be on the tail in rugged country of a Taliban/Al-Quada death sqad. They would kill anyone that crossed thier path, so they couldn't tell us where they went. As we followed this one particular group of scum. We counted 21 bodies, dead in one house. 3 where male, the rest were feamle. The 3 males looked to be in thier late sixties, more than likely they were in thier late forties, cause life is tough on a human in this part of the world. They had it easy this day though, they only took one bullet to the head. The females were not so luckey. Most were cut from crouch to chin, 5 of which dogs were eating thier guts when we got there. One small girl, looked to around 1 or 2 yrs old, was beheaded. Her head was nailed to the bucket of the town well.

He also does not know what it like to finally cacth-up to these monsters and exchange gun fire with them. Kill 14 of them. Then have to treat the 3 that surrender with respect and tend to thier wounds. Call in a Medivac Helo, put them on it, as you have to walk to next trash pile others call home, to start the cycle all over again.

This particular person, that I called a few choice names. Has posted propaganda from obsure sorces or from individuals that come from areas of the world, that has an agenda against the free world. He seems to live by them.

I would like to challenge this person to take a trip to Afganistan. Take a site seeing tour to the rural areas. Talk to the people that live in these areas. Ask them thier opinion of the USA. I promiss you, you will be suprized by the answers you will get. You will also see first hand it has nothing to with money. The only money involved is US dollars at work rebuilding these trash piles into a place fit for humans to live.

This person is just spreading filth on the same level as Hitler. Man, you just have no clue. As far as your personal message goes. What I posted here is my problem with you. I will accept your apology when you go see Afghanistan with your own eyes and you realize how bad your lies are.

[Dead Rabbit]

I guess, I got bit vulgar with my edited post. I will not apologize for it niether. It was no less offensive than anything a certain person has posted.

This person probally has never had to sacrifice anything in his life. I can invision him sitting in a cafe, sipping his choice of caffine, and talking how bad the world is.

He has no clue how bad the world is. I bet he has never, walked into a trash pile that 500 people call home. Have the men of that trash pile, walk up crying, kissing your hands and face, and thanking you for finally liberating them from thier oppressers. This is something, that happened to me 42 times in a period of 16 months in Afganistan.

He also has no clue what it is like to be on the tail in rugged country of a Taliban/Al-Quada death sqad. They would kill anyone that crossed thier path, so they couldn't tell us where they went. As we followed this one particular group of scum. We counted 21 bodies, dead in one house. 3 where male, the rest were feamle. The 3 males looked to be in thier late sixties, more than likely they were in thier late forties, cause life is tough on a human in this part of the world. They had it easy this day though, they only took one bullet to the head. The females were not so luckey. Most were cut from crouch to chin, 5 of which dogs were eating thier guts when we got there. One small girl, looked to around 1 or 2 yrs old, was beheaded. Her head was nailed to the bucket of the town well.

He also does not know what it like to finally cacth-up to these monsters and exchange gun fire with them. Kill 14 of them. Then have to treat the 3 that surrender with respect and tend to thier wounds. Call in a Medivac Helo, put them on it, as you have to walk to next trash pile others call home, to start the cycle all over again.

This particular person, that I called a few choice names. Has posted propaganda from obsure sorces or from individuals that come from areas of the world, that has an agenda against the free world. He seems to live by them.

I would like to challenge this person to take a trip to Afganistan. Take a site seeing tour to the rural areas. Talk to the people that live in these areas. Ask them thier opinion of the USA. I promiss you, you will be suprized by the answers you will get. You will also see first hand it has nothing to with money. The only money involved is US dollars at work rebuilding these trash piles into a place fit for humans to live.

This person is just spreading filth on the same level as Hitler. Man, you just have no clue. As far as your personal message goes. What I posted here is my problem with you. I will accept your apology when you go see Afghanistan with your own eyes and you realize how bad your lies are.

Kidstaxie,

.

Yo…the best we can do is just have the debate, let the opinions fall where they do, and let the fellow snusers, if only silently to themselves, make their own call. I know you’ve been through a lot, and it must be exasperating to see theories that go so directly against your personal experience (I’m a vet myself). The problem with the internet is personal experience won’t get you anywhere. After all, this is the most impersonal form of human communication I can imagine. I know it’s easy for me to say, but don’t let it piss you off. Look at how many times my “Americanism” was brought up. 3 different posters came at me with that on 4 different occasions. Replace American with “black” and its unbelievable. To some extant, some like to see Americans get pissed off. Some laugh at it. Don’t give these guys that amo. Fear not, for most people, even those who are very far from you politically, are much more rational then you realize. Trust in reason, dude. This debate isn’t worthy of the sacrifices you have made, brother.

[holnrew]

Gosh... well this has become strange.

There's no need for personal attacks.

I respect what you have gone through kidstaxi, but your experience doesn't excuse you from engaging in debate in a civilised manner.

This all a bit out of my depth now.

All I will say is that things look very different when you don't live in the USA. American citizens, for the most part, aren't hugely affected by foreign policy, and because the news is so insular (understandable given the size of the country), the effect it as on the rest of the world is often unnoticed.

I'm puzzled by Palin's attack on the "liberal" media, when there is Fox News... Surely freedom of speech necessitates balance by allowing there to be liberal news sources too?

Now for a different debate, why is there an embargo on Cuba still? Surely for the past 20 years or so it has posed no threat? Is it not inhumane to cripple the country in such a manner?

[ponysoprano]

The CIA probably believes El Che is still alive and dangerous. So... no cigar.

[lxskllr]

Now for a different debate, why is there an embargo on Cuba still? Surely for the past 20 years or so it has posed no threat? Is it not inhumane to cripple the country in such a manner?

Inertia... The embargo should have been lifted in the late 60s. China is every bit as bad as Cuba, but our country would fall apart if we quit trading with them today :^/

[Zero]

"9/11 was spectacular, to be sure, but there is very little evidence connecting the incident with anyone. Most of the accused 19 have been verified to be very much alive and well in various countries around the world and have absolutely nothing to do with Al Qaeda. " -Zero

Zero....are you sure you don't want to retract that statement from the...uh....official snuson record? It's important everyone knows where you stand on this point. Even the very liberal Americans.

It's not where I stand, it's a matter of record.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...dentities.html

[Zero]

(...long post)

Look, man, I understand acutely what is going on over there and I sympathize with the shit you've no doubt had to endure. I've talked to lots of people who have been over there, have heard many stories from many different people in many different positions in many different areas of the globe. I do have a heart. I do understand the suffering that is going on and it does make me a little crazy inside to know that all this horrible stuff is going on, mostly with innocent people as its victim, and to know that there's little I can do to change it.

The only thing I'm asking you to do is to try to understand how what you have seen and heard is not incompatible with what I have said. The subjective perspective of the Afghani people has very little to do with the means and ends of foreign policy. I'm trying to explain how certain, highly independent branches of the US government are charged with causing the very instability that has these poor people crying for help and welcoming you when you bring it. The military you serve with is not involved in starting this chaos - you are only involved in finishing it, and therefore your perspective is very much incomplete. You are the left hand of the US and you seem to have little idea of what the right hand is doing, if you follow my meaning. And so long as you refuse to even acknowledge the possibility that you could be being manipulated, then you will never fully understand the world around you and the implications your actions have.

You don't know me from a hole in the ground, fine, you may have no cause to believe anything I say - maybe I'm a crazy liar and maybe I'm not. But what about guys like Bush, Cheney, Rice, Rove, etc, etc - you should know them pretty good by now and they have proven time and time again that they are filthy, duplicitous, shameless, bold-faced liars - why on earth do you have any reason to trust anything that comes out of their mouth? I don't know about you, but when someone lies to me all of the time, I tend to start to not trust them at some point.

[Zero]

I'm puzzled by Palin's attack on the "liberal" media, when there is Fox News...

It's a form of psychological warfare, essentially. Divide and conquer. The left creates a bogeyman called "the right" and the right creates a bogeyman called "the left" and they publically fight with each other on about the intellectual level of five year-olds. This has two effects - it conditions people to associate themselves with one "team" or another, and it also conditions them with short, easy-to-remember, often repeated phrases that they can reflexively use in any situation where challenging topics arise.

Brawndo's got what plants crave.
Brawndo's got elecrolytes.
Drink Brawndo.

The idea is to keep people in chaos - continually fighting amongst themselves on topics with more or less little to no relevance to anything actually going on.

Here's the situation.
Here's what to be afraid of.
This is what you think of those people.
Those people are looney.

Rinse, repeat.

What luck for rulers," said Adolf Hitler, "that men do not think." This was a man who convinced his people that the Polish were invading by dressing up a prisoner in a polish uniform and executing him outside a radio station near the border - we're being invaded! And people bought it. Only wackjobs even considered the possibility that it was all just a lie. Then everyone "just followed orders". Befehl ist Befehl.

[holnrew]

It's not where I stand, it's a matter of record.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...dentities.html

Before anybody says anything, The Telegraph is a Conservative newspaper.

[holnrew]

Now for a different debate, why is there an embargo on Cuba still? Surely for the past 20 years or so it has posed no threat? Is it not inhumane to cripple the country in such a manner?

Inertia... The embargo should have been lifted in the late 60s. China is every bit as bad as Cuba, but our country would fall apart if we quit trading with them today :^/

Yeah, and China poses far greater risk because of being a much larger, richer country than Cuba.

Not that I really think either are a threat. Cuba has just been a little guy straggling to get on its feet after it was let down by the Russians. China needs to keep the peace with the rest of the world if it wants to keep its economy.

[holnrew]

I'm puzzled by Palin's attack on the "liberal" media, when there is Fox News...

It's a form of psychological warfare, essentially. Divide and conquer. The left creates a bogeyman called "the right" and the right creates a bogeyman called "the left" and they publically fight with each other on about the intellectual level of five year-olds. This has two effects - it conditions people to associate themselves with one "team" or another, and it also conditions them with short, easy-to-remember, often repeated phrases that they can reflexively use in any situation where challenging topics arise.

Brawndo's got what plants crave.
Brawndo's got elecrolytes.
Drink Brawndo.

The idea is to keep people in chaos - continually fighting amongst themselves on topics with more or less little to no relevance to anything actually going on.

Here's the situation.
Here's what to be afraid of.
This is what you think of those people.
Those people are looney.

Rinse, repeat.

What luck for rulers," said Adolf Hitler, "that men do not think." This was a man who convinced his people that the Polish were invading by dressing up a prisoner in a polish uniform and executing him outside a radio station near the border - we're being invaded! And people bought it. Only wackjobs even considered the possibility that it was all just a lie. Then everyone "just followed orders". Befehl ist Befehl.

Yeah, I often worry I'm just as bad as "them", just the opposite extreme. But I think I would describe myself more as a humanitarian than liberal. But perhaps they are one and the same.

[Dead Rabbit]

"9/11 was spectacular, to be sure, but there is very little evidence connecting the incident with anyone. Most of the accused 19 have been verified to be very much alive and well in various countries around the world and have absolutely nothing to do with Al Qaeda. " -Zero

Zero....are you sure you don't want to retract that statement from the...uh....official snuson record? It's important everyone knows where you stand on this point. Even the very liberal Americans.

It's not where I stand, it's a matter of record.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...dentities.html

I thought that's what you meant. I remember that now. Dude, the mix up that took place in the confussion 2 weeks after 9/11 is proof to you that maybe the entire attack wasn't orchastrated by OBL? That being said, I should have responded with more wit, as this will very artficially give credence to your conspiracy theory. On must tread carefully in that kind of debate. I dropped the ball.