Who are you supporting in the upcoming American election

[holnrew]

To counter the argument that America is interested in helping the world with its invasions and such, then how come the Zimbabwean people have been left with a fascistic dictator? (I'm disappointed that no countries at all, including my own, have taken any action)

You can't argue that Iraq is full of terrorists just because most of its population is Islamic. Al Qaeda had no roots in Iraq. Although the actions of America and Britain there has stirred up a lot of ill feeling.

Also it shows great ignorance to say ALL Muslims wish death to the west, the majority of Muslims are nothing like that. A lot of Muslims in this country don't like the Islamic extremists because it gives them all a bad name, and they have to put up with prejudiced comments and racial attacks.

I'm reasonably confident that without the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan then the terrorist attacks in London would not have happened.

[holnrew]

Damn I said I wouldn't post any more in this thread... Oh well ops:

[Premium Parrots]

I know you are all desperately waiting for my view on this issue. Yea right, so here it is anyway..........

[Dead Rabbit]

First of all, holnrew, what’s your deal dude? Every time you post you act as if you are taking part in some illicit act.

I respect what you say, man, relax. ‘

How come the Zimbabwean people have been left with a fascistic dictator? Because of British Imperialism, and you know that. This is exactly my point. The problems in Africa are directly related to British and French actions all the way up to the 60’s. Yet you instantly use this as an example of American hypocrisy. Isn’t “Rhodesia” clearly the UK’s problem?

Ultimately though, I will concede this point. The people who have been so shamelessly screwed by European Imperialism deserve better. And while I wish we could solve every problem in the world, we simply can’t afford to lose the blood and money.

I live amongst one of the largest Arab populations outside the Middle East itself. Upon both the invasion of Iraq and the hanging of S.H., I literally had problems driving my car due to demonstrations by Arab Americans.

They were celebrating and waiving American flags.


So, I agree, its unfortunate some Muslims get lumped in with the diseased part of Islamic culture that exists today. But make no mistake about it; there is a sizable chunk of Islamic culture that is diseased. Just as the American South was in the 19th century. Just as Imperial Japan was in the 1930’s.

I find it truly fascinating you don’t blame the terrorist bus bombers for, well, being terrorist bus bombers.

[holnrew]

Yeah, it is ultimately the bombers fault, but they were motivated by the Iraq war, if that hadn't have happened then they wouldn't have done it. And discontent in the Middle East has its roots in Islamic holy land being taken away from them (Jerusalem and East Timor), the whole Palestine/Israel "thing" and US support of nations which marginalise the Muslim people. It's a very delicate issue, and I'm not saying that the terrorists are correct in their actions, but further invasion and occupation is only going to escalate the situation.

I guess I shot myself in the foot bringing up Zimbabwe as an example, I agree that Britain left it in quite a state. I think I have come across as far more patriotic than I actually am; personally believe that because you (general "you", not aimed at anybody specific) happen to be born somewhere that isn't a reason to be proud of it.

I'm trying not to step on anybody's toes or cause much upset when I post, so that's why I seem all illicit and such.

[spirit72]

McCain is simply psychologically unfit to lead and had demonstrated that he is little more than a puppet for the neoconservatives. America is screwed either way. I feel for you guys.

What turns me off on McCain is his temperment. If you've read anything about him--especially from former Senators, Congressmen, etc., you'll find that John McCain's temper is legendary. I think the last thing America needs at this point is a hothead at the wheel.

I think Obama's ideas are mostly big-government nonsense too, but he is visibly even-keeled. Even with his lack of experience in foreign policy, I can see him becoming effective in the short term. I can't say that about McCain.

And the whole experience argument against Obama is misdirected too, in my opinion. Okay, he's not an elder statesman, but neither was Abraham Lincoln.

[spirit72]

I'm trying not to step on anybody's toes or cause much upset when I post, so that's why I seem all illicit and such.

Don't mind us, it's just an American thing really. We tend to be very direct and even animated in our discourse and quite passionate about our country, whether or not we agree with our Government. With some of us, it's almost the kind of thing where 'we know we're flawed in a great many areas, but don't YOU say it". Know what I mean?

And by default we tend to assume that others will be as direct with us as we are with them. I wouldn't worry that you've stepped on a whole lot of toes or really offended anyone. Say your piece, my friend. We will, too.

[Zero]

But make no mistake about it; there is a sizable chunk of Islamic culture that is diseased.

There is a sizeable chunk of the human species which is "diseased". No matter what region of the planet you are talking about, it's easy to make a case against any group of people. Give me six months in control of the media in a foreign country which is as ignorant of the US as the US is of other countries and I would have them hating americans as much as you seem to have it in for muslims. Neverending newsreels with KKK demonstrations, police violence, american troops slaughtering civilians around the world - sometimes you have to stop and think about what you're being fed. If it disgusts you to think that others may think that "a sizable chunk of" Americans are violent, power hungry, greedy, assholes, then maybe that will make you stop and re-think your own preconceptions about others.

Muslims are just like every other human being and human society on Earth (which really shouldn't come as a surprise, to be honest). The vast, vast majority are good people - just like you and me. They have a family and neighbours and responsibilities and are generally pretty typical people. This twisted opinion you have is a fabrication - a lie of propaganda which you have apparently taken to heart. I implore you to give some more thought to this.

[Zero]

I'll give you a can of Elixer Power Snus if you write a post comparing and contrasting Keynes, Smith and Rothbard.

This must be completed by 9 eastern time.

That's 2am for me, dude, you were expecting an essay at 2am on a saturday? :lol: Sadly, Elixyr Power Snus is pretty low on my list of personal wants. Consequently, and despite my current supply of zero, the marginal utility of increasing my stock of Elixyr by one is severely outweighed by the disutility of expending my labour to construct you a dialectic on the science and philosophy of economics.

I'm still waiting for a serious criticism of Salerno... :wink:

[RobME]

Because if you are going to just reguretate Salerno, I can't take your opinions seriously.

I've got a whole range of economic texts on my bookshelf - from Smith to Keynes to Rothbard. I speak my opinions and I don't form opinions quickly. Your beef with Salerno?

I'll give you a can of Elixer Power Snus if you write a post comparing and contrasting Keynes, Smith and Rothbard.

I will then give a roll of General Stark to somebody else who reads it.

I'm putting you on notice that I'll read it, AND... I'll send half the roll to zero if HE writes it. So... we're all covered. 8)

Just so you know Zero, Dead Rabbit threw in that time constraint on a last minute edit. :evil: He must've seen my post about splitting the roll of Gen Sterk w/you. Oh well... easy come, easy go. Sorry DR :wink:

[Dead Rabbit]

Because if you are going to just reguretate Salerno, I can't take your opinions seriously.

I've got a whole range of economic texts on my bookshelf - from Smith to Keynes to Rothbard. I speak my opinions and I don't form opinions quickly. Your beef with Salerno?

I'll give you a can of Elixer Power Snus if you write a post comparing and contrasting Keynes, Smith and Rothbard.

I will then give a roll of General Stark to somebody else who reads it.

I'm putting you on notice that I'll read it, AND... I'll send half the roll to zero if HE writes it. So... we're all covered. 8)

Just so you know Zero, Dead Rabbit threw in that time constraint on a last minute edit. :evil: He must've seen my post about splitting the roll of Gen Sterk w/you. Oh well... easy come, easy go. Sorry DR :wink:

lol

[Dead Rabbit]

But make no mistake about it; there is a sizable chunk of Islamic culture that is diseased.

There is a sizeable chunk of the human species which is "diseased". No matter what region of the planet you are talking about, it's easy to make a case against any group of people. Give me six months in control of the media in a foreign country which is as ignorant of the US as the US is of other countries and I would have them hating americans as much as you seem to have it in for muslims. Neverending newsreels with KKK demonstrations, police violence, american troops slaughtering civilians around the world - sometimes you have to stop and think about what you're being fed. If it disgusts you to think that others may think that "a sizable chunk of" Americans are violent, power hungry, greedy, assholes, then maybe that will make you stop and re-think your own preconceptions about others.

Muslims are just like every other human being and human society on Earth (which really shouldn't come as a surprise, to be honest). The vast, vast majority are good people - just like you and me. They have a family and neighbours and responsibilities and are generally pretty typical people. This twisted opinion you have is a fabrication - a lie of propaganda which you have apparently taken to heart. I implore you to give some more thought to this.

I’m not going to respond to you with lists. Lists of the places I’ve been. Lists of the ethnic background of the people I am friends with. That would be lame.

I can only I assure you that I am well aware most Muslims are good people.

I am simply saying at this point and time, Muslim culture is going through a crisis.

If I went back to Spain during the Inquisition, a time when most would agree Iberian, Catholic culture was having some major problems; I bet most of those Spaniards would be quite likable one on one. Yet those same people were taking part in burning Muslims to the stake.

Zero, you seem like a typically educated person, somewhat fresh out of school with the brainwashed notion that all cultures are relative and outside moral judgment. So, like a ping pong ball, I slap the propaganda accusation back at you.

Come on dude, the Ku Klux Klan poses as much of a global threat as radical Islam?

Under your logic, living under what seems to be the modern, general interpretation of Sharia law would be no biggy. You know, death for those who leave Islam, chastity flogging, no freedom of speech….women getting spanked for the unseemly act of eating ice cream in public (Afghanistan under the Taliban).

As I write this hundreds of thousands of children are learning this version of Sharia in schools spanning Europe, Africa, Asia and even in the U.S.

Now, my old boy Zero, please don’t come back at me with your now infamous quasi-Marxist retorts about how it “must be the money”.

A son of the doctor, funded by a well known trust fund baby, helped smash a plane in the WTC.

[Starcadia]

I’m not going to respond to you with lists. Lists of the places I’ve been. Lists of the ethnic background of the people I am friends with. That would be lame.

Do lists of lists qualify? :P

I suspect from your words that you enjoy your own system of morality more than others that are equally valid and self-contained. You patronize, which will achieve the opposite ends of what you imply that you desire to do, which is illuminate. This attitude - typically American - is what Zero is getting at, I think, in regards to how our country deals with the world. That is, arrogantly and single-mindedly. We have yet to learn the true meaning of humility, which is a requisite trait in genuinely benevolent dealings with people. Sure we've been helpful, but we're certainly not altruistic as a nation. Then again, neither are the leaders of the corporations who run this country.

[Dead Rabbit]

[quote="Starcadia"]

I’m not going to respond to you with lists. Lists of the places I’ve been. Lists of the ethnic background of the people I am friends with. That would be lame.

Do lists of lists qualify? :P quote]

lol...good point on the lists

[Dead Rabbit]

I’m not going to respond to you with lists. Lists of the places I’ve been. Lists of the ethnic background of the people I am friends with. That would be lame.

Do lists of lists qualify? :P

I suspect from your words that you enjoy your own system of morality more than others that are equally valid and self-contained. You patronize, which will achieve the opposite ends of what you imply that you desire to do, which is illuminate. This attitude - typically American - is what Zero is getting at, I think, in regards to how our country deals with the world. That is, arrogantly and single-mindedly. We have yet to learn the true meaning of humility, which is a requisite trait in genuinely benevolent dealings with people. Sure we've been helpful, but we're certainly not altruistic as a nation. Then again, neither are the leaders of the corporations who run this country.

I’ve went back and read my posts (and others) several times and can’t see, for the life of me, how I have “patronized” any one. Self effacing sometimes. Lame unfunny attempts at being funny, perhaps. I did see that I made sure that someone I disagree with feels welcome and safe to opine.

Attacking the messenger, which you are doing, is a logical fallacy as old as, well, Greek philosophy and stuff. Ad Hominum. You simply have distaste for my rhetorical style?

I will concede that maybe I am too oblivious to catch myself “patronizing”. This is, as you go on to point out, a part of my culture. Thus, you seem to admit that any and all of my rationale deserves to be ignored because of my upbringing and nationality.

This, my friend, is the very definition of bigotry.

I hope you’re wrong. I hope Zero ultimately welcomes the debate. And I am willing to bet he answers me with ideas that make me think, as he already has.

At times, I have noticed a certain amount of sycophantism when people respond to Zero, probably because of the whole moderator thing.

Yes, I’m calling the man out. But that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t give him my last pris of snus either.