The eighth largest economy of the world

[Slydel]

It seems that California, if considered separate from the US, would be the eighth largest economy of the world. Yet, it is running in the red because the state supports so many worthless people and projects. I do have to say I am not completely informed with the statistics of the state, but I will say WTF is going on in CA? It should be a wonderful prosperous state yet it is so screwed because of its inability to take care of itself. I saw a story on the Communist News Network that stated people are leaving the state at a record rate, something in the upwards of 200,000 in the last year. Yet the state is not losing population because an estimated legal and illegal immigrants coming in at 225,000 a year. Oh, by the way, the illiteracy rate is at 23%. Now, I know longer have to wonder why so many ****ed up people get elected in to office by that state.

[Jason]

Saw this on MSN after I got home from work today...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28696452

I could see this coming a mile away. You would not believe how much money this state spends on absolute bullshit every year. Highways are perpetually under construction, and schools are literally falling apart because money is being funneled into worthless "programs" and initiatives. Illegal immigration is (as it always has been) a huge problem, and they are afraid that the rash of drug violence in Mexican border towns will eventually spill over into the States (and it will; it's already starting to).

I feel sorry for Ahhnold....he inherited a lot of baggage from previous governors, and now with the jacked-up economy it's just one more thing he can't really do anything about, but will get blamed for.

[Slydel]

Maybe CA will be the first state to initiate the removal of all non-vital/illegal programs that are sapping the state. This should include the removal of all illegals from its borders. Just think how much money could be saved by removing illegals: cost of education, medical, food stamps, prisons....the list goes on. The state has to have some sort of leadership in order to remove the burden that has grown over the years.

[sagedil]

Slydel, California's problems really are becasue of a broken tax system and state laws that has made fixing it almost impossible. Prop 13 started the slide, by drastically altering how property taxes were collected and basically ensuring that not enough tax revenue could be collected to cover what needs to be done. This was made worse, by state initiatives that changed ow taxes could be raised, basically requiring a 66% Supermajority.

Really, just blame democracy. California has one of the most liberal initiative laws that allow initiatives to change the constitution. California voters have basically voted themselves into this whole, but set the bar so high it's almost impossible to change.

I left California 14 years ago cause I knew it could never get any better. Shame, but I can still go back frequently to visit.

[Slydel]

Sagedil,

Are you saying that individual or companies are under taxed? Is it that property taxes are the issue? Seems individual income tax in CA varies between 1.0-10.3% That seems pretty high to me. In MI we have a flat state tax of 4.35% which is pretty high. Unfortunately, I see CA as an effed up state (so is MI). How can such a prosperous state be so far in the red? When I see that an oil can that I got for Christmas states that the contents, which are not sold with the can, might be carciongenic, I get concerned that there is a lot of ****ed up legislators in the state. When companies have to make more expensive products so that they meet CA regulations and then force those same products on to the rest of the country to pay for, I think there is something amiss with the legislature. From what I have seen, the republicans don't want to raise taxes yet the bolsheviks, democrats, don't want to cut spending. Am I wrong that there is a lot of wasted tax dollars in CA?

Our state governor is a worthless (separate subject). I see that has she has done nothing except create the "Cool Cities" initiative. The initiative is to create "Cool Cities" so that the graduates of our fine universities will stay within the state. How stupid is this if there are not jobs to keep them there? Green jobs!!??? Who is she kidding? Riding on the coat tails of Gore's made up religion. Allow for certain tax breaks for technology based companies? Boldly unfair.....yet she believes that they are the jobs of the future. When is it governments decision what jobs are to be created?

In summary: it is not impossible to fix the budget if legislators would stop worrying about getting re-elected and do the right thing. The problems is once voters realize that they can vote for handouts, doing what is right and moral is thrown out the window.

[MrAbstracto]

… iam pridem, ex quo suffragia nulli uendimus, effudit curas; nam qui dabat olim imperium, fasces, legiones, omnia, nunc se continet atque duas tantum res anxius optat, panem et circenses.
(Juvenal, Satire 10.77–81)

Translation:
… Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses

[Premium Parrots]

I'd take the circus anyday...........

[Mr. Snuffleupagus]

Easy to hate on CA especially when your nuts are frozen lol. I thought this was a global recession anyways. Nothing new about this state not being able to put a budget together. BTW I was at the beach in a t-shirt this afternoon lol.

[Jason]

Easy to hate on CA especially when your nuts are frozen lol. I thought this was a global recession anyways. Nothing new about this state not being able to put a budget together. BTW I was at the beach in a t-shirt this afternoon lol.

:lol: Yeah, I wasn't at the beach today, but it was a perfect day to go. I really think that is the only reason why people stay/move here.

I'm from Florida, and people seem to think it's always sunny and warm there.....the reality is that it's freezing cold (for the south, anyway) during the winter and it rains a lot. During the summer you can barely breathe due to the thick humidity. I'll take Cali, thank you...

[sagedil]

Slydel,

The probelm is that Californias taxes are NOT structured correctly, it gets WAY less in property taxes then most states, then struggles to try and fix that in other places.

The problem isn't that California's politicians won't fix it, but that the voters voted in mechanisms that require 66% of the legislators to vote on something that would fix the tax structure. To quote Wikapedia about Prop 13.....

"The proposition's passage resulted in a cap on property tax rates in the state, reducing them by an average of 57%. In addition to lowering property taxes, the initiative also contained language requiring a two-thirds majority in both legislative houses for future increases in all state tax rates or amounts of revenue collected, including income tax rates. It also requires two-thirds vote majority in local elections for local governments wishing to raise special taxes"

This 2/3's requirement has just broken California. Any understanding of why California is so F****d up MUST start with understanding how badly Prop 13 hurt California.

[bakerbarber]

How much of an impact has illegal immigrants draining public services and the health care system had?

I've never been to Cali, but I wonder how much is spent on redundancy in government printing everything in more than one language too. Aren't some street signs in English, Spanish, and Mandarin? I've heard that election ballots and driving tests are in more than English too.

IDK I can see around an airport or something having multilingual signs. I'm more and more perturbed by "pressing 1 for English" and perceive California as the front-runner in the dilution of American "identity" and unity.

I see a scary trend emanating from the west coast of enabling and encouraging people to not assimilate into American culture. I've had more than one occasion where I've been contacted by headhunters and almost laughed at for not being fluent in Spanish.

If I lived in another part of the world I wouldn't expect to be accommodated. I would assume I needed to learn the language and customs. The opposite seems to be the trend here lately. Americans are expected to embrace unquestionably anyone choosing to enter our society. Whether they feel like contributing or draining doesn't seem to matter.

Taxes are archaic and complex. The entire country along with every state should wipe the slate and start with a new system that is broad and even.
I'm all for a flat rate sales tax. Seems that the way things are now anyone with enough time and knowledge of the system can get around a lot of taxes on the books.

Social security sure as hell wouldn't be bankrupt if people had to pay on all income and not just up to the $100,00.00 mark. (or whatever the exact income level is) With the concentration of wealthy people in California it's hard to contemplate any financial issues within the state's government. Everyone can afford bright CPAs to help them keep their money though.

[sagedil]

So the latest numbers, it is estimated that about 6.5 percent of California's population in 2000 were illegal immigrants. This is significant but not really the problem you think it might be. Almost all of them have jobs. laws have been changed that make it very difficult for them to get many services anyways. And on a slightly different subject, I will add this....

Immigrants, Including “Illegal Aliens” in California, Have Much Lower Crime Rate than the Rest of Us

Major study debunks fear of crime wave from those who cross border from Mexico


A study released today by the Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC) should lay to rest the myth that immigrants, including those who are here in California illegally, are responsible for crime waves. In fact, it is just the opposite of what some xenophobes would have you believe when they try to whip up fears about crime from those who cross over from Mexico to California. Even amongst this group, the rate of criminal activities is substantially lower than those who are native born Americans.

“Crime, Corrections, and California: What Does Immigration Have to Do with it?”, based on U.S. Census data, looks at the data from multiple points of view and probes for a different outcome. But in 26 pages of rigorous analysis, this is what the authors conclude:

• People born outside the United States make up about 35 percent of California’s adult population but represent only about 17 percent of the state prison population.

• U.S.-born adult men are incarcerated in state prisons at rates up to 3.3 times higher than foreign-born men.

• Among men ages 18-40 – the age group most likely to commit crime – those born in the United States are 10 times more likely than immigrants to be in county jail or state prison.

• Noncitizen men from Mexico ages 18-40 – a group disproportionately likely to have entered the United States illegally – are more than 8 times less likely than U.S.-born men in the same age group to be in a correctional setting (0.48% vs. 4.2%).

• California cities with a higher share of recent immigrants have lower property and violent crime rates than in those with fewer immigrants.

What is striking about this is that the immigrant population in California, as is true nationally, is skewed towards young adults and males—a group that statistically has a higher rate of crime. They also have lower educational levels. Yet they have much lower rates of incarceration and institutionalization—especially when compared with those who are born in the United States who have low levels of education.

Wonder whether Lou Dobbs will continue to take his cheap shots such as this one which you can watch from CNN: “Lou Dobbs: iIlegal alien criminals bankrupting California.”

One need not go outside California to see more of this hysteria. On the California State Senate Republican Caucus site, you can find Senator Tom Harman fulminating: “Our prisons are clogged with multiple violent-offenders who are here illegally” and charges such as this have been common coming from our state’s Republican legislators.

Dan Walters in his Sacramento Bee column today, “Immigrant facts rebut alarmists” finds one benefit from the hysteria over illegal immigration and cites the PPIC report as a “reputable study.” He concludes:

“Those who are coming to California illegally are, overwhelmingly, coming to work and better themselves and their families. We should make public policy based on their emerging factual portrait, not the horrible fantasies being peddled by self-serving, self-appointed patriots.”

I couldn’t have said it better myself."

http://www.californiaprogressreport....ants_incl.html

Please trust me when I tell you, California's structural problems really are the way they have voted themselves into a corner. It is just impossible to get 2/3 of both state houses, or 2/3 of the voters to vote to fix the problems. These problems existed long before the surge of illegals, and it will exist long after the Great depression of the 21st century sends most of them back to their countries of orgin.

[SeneNatten]

If I recall correctly, the United States federal government is running in the red, too.

Methinks that if you want to complain about a foreign government, which California is to non-Californians, at least have the spirit to make concrete suggestions. Which programs should be cut? Which taxes should be raised? If, on the other hand, you read something about California's economy and were surprised, stating that fact and asking others to help explain things would be a better course.

I mean, I understand complaining about one's own government, even though I tend to walk away from mere whining. But not offering up any constructive criticism for debate when you're smearing other people's problems strikes me as unsportsmanlike.

[bakerbarber]

Who me?

Ok, here's my suggestions.

Cut spending.

Stop dumping money into black hole special interest projects.

I wasn't trying to be unsportsmanlike. I just like bitching about stuff. I live on the other side of the continent, but nevertheless I still feel concerned about what I see and read about happening in California.

If I ruled the world things would be awesome. Unfortunately for all of us I don't. :cry: It's been left to several separate chasms of agenda driven politicians.

[holnrew]

Interesting thread. I don't know a lot about CA (but more than the average Brit) but I really like Arnie's politics.

We have a supposed problem with immigration here, people think they come here and take all they can from the taxpayer, but the reality is that the majority of them are very hard working, often doing the jobs many British people are too lazy to do (who would themselves rather take all they can from the taxpayer). Another problem is almost all British people consider themselves middle class now, and without a working class we need people to do the work we consider ourselves to be above.

The reality of people having a problem with immigrants has its roots in xenophobia. I find it ironic that many Americans have a dislike for it when both the American continents is primarily made up of people descended from immigrants. (The same goes for the UK, only it goes back hundreds and thousands of years so is easier to forget.)

At the end of the day we're all humans, why all the hatin'?