Did you remember to turn your clock forward?

[truthwolf1]

This is for the "USEFUL IDIOT" COMMUNIST!

"People should not be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people."

[ShaulWolf]

You missed the point I'm getting at. Someone truly intent on causing bodily harm and death to other people will find the means to do so. It doesn't matter if firearms are outlawed. Stabbing, bludgeoning, still finding illegal firearms, etc. If someone wants to do it, they'll do it. Whether it be a knife, baseball bat, bomb, whatever. Someone will end up dead. The number will vary, but general outcome is the same.

I think a better argument would be for better responsibility of owning a gun rather than a complete ban on it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/ja...olitics.ukguns
Above article is as of 2007. Note the references to gun smuggling. Yes, they will get smuggled in. Profits would easily outweigh the risks. Take a look at the importation of illegal drugs. There will always be someone who wants some and will pay.

And I'll still refer to the personal experience stated above. If you mean to tell me that you'd rather not have my friend armed with a handgun against a guy who had a knife pulled on him, then I honestly don't know what to say to you. You'd either be that ignorant or trolling.

But the ability to defend yourself is still secondary to the purpose of having an armed citizenry able to form a militia to protect the nation or to overthrow a government that has become oppressive against its citizens. I think you completely ignored that argument.

[Judge Faust]

You missed the point I'm getting at. Someone truly intent on causing bodily harm and death to other people will find the means to do so. It doesn't matter if firearms are outlawed. Stabbing, bludgeoning, still finding illegal firearms, etc. If someone wants to do it, they'll do it. Whether it be a knife, baseball bat, bomb, whatever. Someone will end up dead. The number will vary, but general outcome is the same.

Once again, this argument is erroneous. We monkeys have been killing each other since day one - but firearms make this a hell of a lot simpler. Sure, my neighbor may try to stab me to death, but the lethality rate of stab wounds is far below that of bullet wounds. It's also pretty difficult to go on a rampage with a cold weapon... Do you honestly believe that the Columbine and Virginia Tech massacres would have had the same death tolls had the killers used knifes or baseball bats?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/ja...olitics.ukguns
Above article is as of 2007. Note the references to gun smuggling. Yes, they will get smuggled in. Profits would easily outweigh the risks. Take a look at the importation of illegal drugs. There will always be someone who wants some and will pay.

Heh. Here is what I find interesting:

"The number of gun-related deaths went down from 55 to 49 in the year to September 2007."

The US has more gun murders in a single day.

The drug analogy is a very poor one. Drugs can easily be smuggled into any nation. They are extremely easy to conceal and don't tend to set off metal detectors. I have dealt with numerous cases involving the swallowing of cocaine/heroin-filled balloons. Try doing that with an AK...

And I'll still refer to the personal experience stated above. If you mean to tell me that you'd rather not have my friend armed with a handgun against a guy who had a knife pulled on him, then I honestly don't know what to say to you. You'd either be that ignorant or trolling.

Once again, poor example. In order for it to occur, I would have to spend a lot of time in the company of a "friend" packing heat. Which do you think is more likely: that I will be in his company when a would-be robber pulls a knife on me, or that I will get shot when my "friend" mishandles his gun?

Statistics point to the latter.

Moreover, knifes are more often pulled out as a threat rather than as a weapon. I would rather have a knife pulled on me and hand my wallet over than to get caught in the middle of a gun vs. knife fight... My chances of surviving the prior are far greater. Plus, I can always run away from a knife-wielding criminal. Bullets, not so much...

But the ability to defend yourself is still secondary to the purpose of having an armed citizenry able to form a militia to protect the nation or to overthrow a government that has become oppressive against its citizens. I think you completely ignored that argument.

This is by far the worst argument in the gun fanatics' arsenal (pun intended).

It might have worked back in the 18th century, when both the citizenry and the government were limited to muskets and flintlock rifles.

Those times are long past... I hate to break it to you, but when the government has cruise missiles and stealth bombers, your beloved hunting rifle is unlikely to do you much good...

[Premium Parrots]

But the ability to defend yourself is still secondary to the purpose of having an armed citizenry able to form a militia to protect the nation or to overthrow a government that has become oppressive against its citizens. I think you completely ignored that argument.

This is by far the worst argument in the gun fanatics' arsenal (pun intended).

It might have worked back in the 18th century, when both the citizenry and the government were limited to muskets and flintlock rifles.

Those times are long past... I hate to break it to you, but when the government has cruise missiles and stealth bombers, your beloved hunting rifle is unlikely to do you much good...

First off we are all entitled to our opinions. We are quite civilized on this board and we all get along. Like they say "we agree to disagree".


My beloved hunting rifle, one of several, if needed for protection, can pick someone off at 300 yards. And it will be in MY neighborhood and I will have the advantage. Hence, the reason our military has been training in urban areas for the last 10 years. The military will have to think twice before going after its own citizens. We ARE too well armed. And our military knows it.
Sadly, the gap is closeing quickly tho.


Sure our government has us out powered by the means of more powerfull and smarter weapons, but they have to respect our citizens somewhat because we actually have more small arms than the government and there are alot more citizens than military. And some of the citizens are have some of the big guns too. You better believe it. If our government wants to take total control they will have to fight in OUR neighborhoods that we know inside and out. The military will be at a great disadvantage in this reguard. Now don't say that they will simply bomb the crap out of the citizens because that wouldn't happen at all. The government doesn't want to rebuild the infrastructure of their own country.

Let me put it another way. Our government has the highest tech weapons. But is forced to respect 3 billion Chineze....even if the Chineze only have clubs to beat us with. If those Chineze can get to OUR country in large enough numbers at a time our military won't bomb the crap out of them in this country. Our only chance would be to bomb them in their country so we wouldn't have to clean up the mess over there.

Our country came about and was built on certain "freedoms". People fled from other countries to come here, build a country and be free. Thats simply why we live in the USA. To be free to speak, own arms, etc. You are quite welcome to stay in your country and feel however you want. I prefer to stay here, the home of the brave the land of the free.


I'm not sure any of that made any sense to anyone.

On another note; Once or twice a year I need to travel with large sums of cash. $30,000 to $80,000 at a time. [All legal of course, for my business]. I'll be dammed if I ain't gonna be packing at those times. AND, I need protection for my facilities. I let be quite know that I'm a gun collector and my facilities is very secure. Otherwise, by now I certainly would have had my birds ripped-off. I'm not just saying this either. My friend lives in South Florida. When the hurricanes come he has his buddies arm up and station themselves around his facilities because people will wait for him to evacuate so they can come steal his birds. I don't have to worry about the hurricanes, luckily. But I do have to worry about simply being robbed. And I don't mean someone just waiting for us to be gone so they can try and break in. I mean someone blasting their way in, shooting us and then taking the birds. Some of these birds are $15,000 each. When you have 30 or more of them you take all appropriate steps to protect them.

end of rant

..........not that theres anything wrong with that.

[Condor]

My father taught me never to speak to communist defense attorneys.

[ShaulWolf]

My father taught me never to speak to communist defense attorneys.

Too right, mate. Ideologies clash too heavily to see either side.

PP, good point. On top of that I don't think the government would be able to deal with outside attention in the event they start laying down heavy artillery on their own citizenry. Imagine dealing with your own population and then having an outside force start adding pressure. I'd also doubt if the citizenry were to try to overthrow a corrupt government that it'd be on equal footing. Asymmetrical warfare would be used more than anything else, and that's hell to deal with. Look at Afghanistan and the trouble that's causing.

Doubt this argument will ever be settled. No common ground to agree on at all.

Oh, Condor, Jackie says you're "teh awesome", and texasmade, you made her laugh with your quote.

[Premium Parrots]

I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to say.

[ShaulWolf]

I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to say.

We were just going some of this in national security studies. No one comes close to what the US military spends on the military. If the last figures were right we spend more than the half the world combined on our military alone. That's just dandy, except we're still in the mentality of superpower vs. superpower; symmetric warfare. We can easily take on other armies toe to toe and destroy them, but we have issues when it comes to taking on an enemy that blends in and disappears. Guerrilla warfare is hell to fight against and counter since you're fighting on their terms.

[texasmade]

guerrilla warfare is effective in many situations...take away morals and instill discipline...you would have an unstoppable force

[lxskllr]

I could build a decent gun in my bedroom, with parts from the hardware store, and pharmacy. It would take me a few hours, and I'd have the gun, the propellant, and the projectile. This shit isn't quantum physics or anything. I'm not even particularly motivated. If I can easily build a gun, don't you think a motivated criminal could?

All gun control does is punish the law abiding citizen. Criminals don't need to follow the law...

[Condor]

What you guys are doing is engaging in an argument with someone who argues for a living (if he is indeed a litigator). The only difference is, you argue based on logic and common sense. He can say whatever the hell fits his needs. Anyone who admits that they are a communist has lost any shred of credibility with me (especially if they are an adult), and a communist that is a lawyer...well...just saying the two words in one sentence makes me feel like i have to take a shower.

[Condor]

This is by far the worst argument in the gun fanatics' arsenal (pun intended).

It might have worked back in the 18th century, when both the citizenry and the government were limited to muskets and flintlock rifles.

Those times are long past... I hate to break it to you, but when the government has cruise missiles and stealth bombers, your beloved hunting rifle is unlikely to do you much good...

I hate to break it to you, mofo, but the vast majority of the people who operate these weapons systems agree with us.

[Sal1000us]

No one comes close to what the US military spends on the military..

Defense-----Active troops
(US$ BN)-----Thousands
----------------------------
A. World 2,410.00 ----17,442
1. China 61 ------------2,250
2. USA 711 -----------1,380
3. India 30.5 -----------1,325
4. Russia 70 -------------1,245

[ShaulWolf]

No one comes close to what the US military spends on the military..

Defense-----Active troops
(US$ BN)-----Thousands
----------------------------
A. World 2,410.00 ----17,442
1. China 61 ------------2,250
2. USA 711 -----------1,380
3. India 30.5 -----------1,325
4. Russia 70 -------------1,245

Just making sure I got it right. They have more troops, but a smaller budget. Aye?

And Condor, I think you'll laugh at this.

[kum]

i hate engaging in these arguments, and i know we won't change each other's minds here, so you can just ignore this post and not reply to it, but... this gun craze is a US phenomenon, it can't be found anywhere else in the civilised world. the rest of the world thinks you're foolish, paranoid and grew up on Hollywood action flicks. i share that opinion, but i don't really care, i don't make an issue out of it, especially since i'm at the other side of the planet and it's your problem. but yes, i think you're weird and disillusioned, and i kinda feel sorry for you. you have all that wealth and basics for a civilised society, yet you just can't let go of a few primitive traditions that will always drag you down.

i'm from Croatia, quite recently we had a few years of bloody war. not a TV war, and not an overseas war, but a real war on our streets. everyone had guns. but the war ended, and we got rid of guns too. i don't have a gun. and no one will come from nowhere and shoot me. someone may attack me or maybe even rob me, but no one will shoot me. and i don't need a gun, although i have a right to have one. because i know having a gun will actually make it more possible for me to be shot at. and i know that for a fact and from experience, and no endless theorizing about "freedom" and whatnot will change that.

wow, this turned out longer than i thought. but as i said, i'll try to not go into discussions, it's boring and pointless. i just wanted to give my 2 cents, because i think you're silly and when i see this US gun fetish, i can't help but think of you as big immature kids.