Did you remember to turn your clock forward?

[TBD]

so on that note...im gonna get me some vodka and phantom los :twisted:

A little early for Vodka ain't it? What are you some kind of drunk? :lol: I'll join in the Phantom los tho'.

Speaking of eastern bloc drinks, what's your favorite vodka? I prefer Stoli, but like most of what's left. Say what you will about their political system, those people make GOOD booze.

[chainsnuser]

Capitalism is just an acceptance of a few basic principles - that you should not steal from another person, that you should not use violence to achieve ends, that every interaction between human beings should be the result of mutual agreement and that no transaction should arise by use of violence or coercion.

I also haven't read this thread, but I've scrolled through it a little to find a post worth reading ... and now this annoyance.

Zero, you should understand that Capitalism only means that you have the right to exploit others without necessarily being prosecuted for that.

I have total respect for every craftsman who runs his own business and manages to build a house and make a living for himself and his family, even if many others work as hard but aren't as lucky. But all these "self-made" billionaires are just a myth. Nobody becomes a billionaire without the exploitation of the working-force and the ideas of thousands of others. The question only is how much exploitation is acceptable as a means to raise the standard of living for everybody (in the means that not everybody just is exploited like a slave but actually also profits from the capitalist principles of freedom, by doing an overall quite well-payed job, e.g.) and when exploitation even in a free society becomes slavery.

Liberalist state-principles (let them all do what they want - it's their own decision) has historically always lead to mass-poverty, slavery (real slavery or de-facto-slavery), criminal structures and extremism in every direction. Even communism is better, no doubt!

Yes, I won't read the whole thread, and to be honest, we, in western societies can't really argue as our whole standard of living is to a great extent built on the exploitation of so-called third-world-countries. Actually from every Euro or Dollar that we earn, at least 90 cents are earned by others, working hard in underveloped countries and from the other 10 cents 9 cents are possibly earned by people working a shitty, underpaid job in the same company.

Zero, free liberalism and/or free capitalism will not change anything to this injustice, they will only make it worse.

Liberalism and Capitalism really sound nice in theory, but they have historically only lead to chaos and mass-poverty. State-intervention is indeed needed (but not necessarily in the way it's actually done in the western countries, that's no question).

Cheers!

[CaptNihil]

Speaking of eastern bloc drinks, what's your favorite vodka? I prefer Stoli, but like most of what's left. Say what you will about their political system, those people make GOOD booze.

Stolichnaya is a fine vodka, perhaps the finest. Try leaving it in the freezer for couple of days and pour when the density becomes somewhat like honey. It is one of the few drinks that doesn't exhibit the-day-after hangover problems. You wake up in the morning as if someone else had drank the whole bottle.

[Starcadia]

JF - One thing I've learned - stubbornly but surely - is that the best answer is always somewhere in the middle of two opposing views. Moderation.

[TBD]

Speaking of eastern bloc drinks, what's your favorite vodka? I prefer Stoli, but like most of what's left. Say what you will about their political system, those people make GOOD booze.

Stolichnaya is a fine vodka, perhaps the finest. Try leaving it in the freezer for couple of days and pour when the density becomes somewhat like honey. It is one of the few drinks that doesn't exhibit the-day-after hangover problems. You wake up in the morning as if someone else had drank the whole bottle.

I know that trick. I have a friend who is of Russian descent and he taught me how to drink Vodka the right way. I couldn't stand vodka at room temperature ,but frozen it's truly a nectar of the gods. Also mixing vodka is forbidden as well, drink it and chase it with a sip of very cold water.

[Zero]

Capitalism is just an acceptance of a few basic principles - that you should not steal from another person, that you should not use violence to achieve ends, that every interaction between human beings should be the result of mutual agreement and that no transaction should arise by use of violence or coercion.

I also haven't read this thread, but I've scrolled through it a little to find a post worth reading ... and now this annoyance.

Zero, you should understand that Capitalism only means that you have the right to exploit others without necessarily being prosecuted for that.

I have total respect for every craftsman who runs his own business and manages to build a house and make a living for himself and his family, even if many others work as hard but aren't as lucky. But all these "self-made" billionaires are just a myth. Nobody becomes a billionaire without the exploitation of the working-force and the ideas of thousands of others. The question only is how much exploitation is acceptable as a means to raise the standard of living for everybody (in the means that not everybody just is exploited like a slave but actually also profits from the capitalist principles of freedom, by doing an overall quite well-payed job, e.g.) and when exploitation even in a free society becomes slavery.

Liberalist state-principles (let them all do what they want - it's their own decision) has historically always lead to mass-poverty, slavery (real slavery or de-facto-slavery), criminal structures and extremism in every direction. Even communism is better, no doubt!

Yes, I won't read the whole thread, and to be honest, we, in western societies can't really argue as our whole standard of living is to a great extent built on the exploitation of so-called third-world-countries. Actually from every Euro or Dollar that we earn, at least 90 cents are earned by others, working hard in underveloped countries and from the other 10 cents 9 cents are possibly earned by people working a shitty, underpaid job in the same company.

Zero, free liberalism and/or free capitalism will not change anything to this injustice, they will only make it worse.

Liberalism and Capitalism really sound nice in theory, but they have historically only lead to chaos and mass-poverty. State-intervention is indeed needed (but not necessarily in the way it's actually done in the western countries, that's no question).

Cheers!

All I can say is that, quite frankly, you don't know what you are talking about. You are blaming capitalism for things which are not capitalist, and for the sole reason, as far as I can tell, that you don't quite understand what capitalism is and, more importantly, what it isn't.

Most of what I've read in this thread is just a lot of rhetoric which has been repeated by people who are just saying words they have heard someone else say. I don't get the impression that anyone here really understands what they are talking about or has given any serious thought to the core problems of economics, nor has there been any critical examination of the current state of affairs in that context.

In addition to Man, Economy, and State, I'll recommend a few more books - reading them will be far more enlightening than having more discusion here. Nobody here has much to say on the topic which is very useful.

Human Action - Ludwig von Mises
The Road to Serfdom - Friedrich von Hayek

The first book is really one of the first economics treatises which begins with an examination of human beings. The entire theory is predicated on how the human animal behaves - no other theory of economics does this. Some expect humans to behave like robots, others, like Marx, insist that humans who do not behave according to the plan need to be "purged" from society. Others yet, like Keynes, ignore human beings completely and attempt to treat society like something akin to a swarm of insects. All of these ideas are deeply flawed. They also share another thing in common - they intend to claim that following their plan willl lead to paradise on earth, as though such a thing is even possible. They are completely unrealistic.

At any rate, the one thing I've learned is that economics and society are not things I've ever learned anything about by having silly debates with people who haven't given the subject serious thought. The framework of logic which is needed to properly analyse the problem is vast and cannot be condensed into micro-arguments with any sort of self-consistency. This is why these debates get nowhere. If anything, I'd suggest reading Hayek first - it's the shortest of the books and the least technical. If it doesn't change your mind, at very least it will change the way you think about economics, and likewise the way you think about solutions to the problems of economics. At least then we get somewhere productive.

[ShaulWolf]

That's the second time I've heard Mises come up. How technical does he get?

[Zero]

Perhaps not quite as technical as Rothbard, but have a look see : click for Human Action, Mises

[CaptNihil]

I couldn't stand vodka at room temperature ,but frozen it's truly a nectar of the gods. Also mixing vodka is forbidden as well, drink it and chase it with a sip of very cold water.

That is the only way to enjoy a shot of vodka..... Na Zdarovye

[texasmade]

i likwe quite a few actually....top three would have to be

Absolut,Stoli,and Chopin


they're a nice break away from the norm of jager and brandy

[ShaulWolf]

Thanks, Zero! I'll take a serious look this weekend. Too much in my normal course load to be able to get much into it until then.

[Xobeloot]

I couldn't stand vodka at room temperature ,but frozen it's truly a nectar of the gods. Also mixing vodka is forbidden as well, drink it and chase it with a sip of very cold water.

That is the only way to enjoy a shot of vodka..... Na Zdarovye

If I am drinking vodka, I prefer a chilled shot with a nice burn. Though I don't know if I would actually call Ciroq a vodka (since it is made from grapes), it is actually a brilliant drink. It tastes like a super smooth vodka and has mild throat burn. After the shot, you get a warm fruity taste residual from the grapes used to make it.

[Xobeloot]

New title, new topic: GO!

[texasmade]

THE SMELL IS MJ!!!!!! SHE JUST CAME IN A CLOUD OF SMOKE!!!!

[ShaulWolf]

I say smelly people. I'd think they'd be more socialist rather than communist, but meh. Either way, they're smelly, and not from body odor.