Did you remember to turn your clock forward?

[Starcadia]

It's not about piling up a bunch of stuff for the sake of it...

Although it ultimately becomes this, doesn't it? Even cash is inherently worthless, not to mention all the stuff we think we need because our neighbors may have it. Psychology and behavior require consideration in the argument as well.

[Zero]

I get so tired of this argument. If your cash is worthless, why don't you give it all to me?

Seriously. Why not?

Because it...doesn't have value?

Again, I'll suggest a reading of Human Action - like I've said, it is predicated on human behaviour and human psychology. The entire concept of profit is a psychological one. All value is subjective.

For example - a baker may have ten loaves of bread. The bread itself has little value to him while he has ten loaves of them. He can only eat maybe one or two before they go stale, but would you say that they are "worthless"? Of course not - because he can take a loaf or two, which he doesn't value very highly (because has has so many) to the butcher, who has the same issue with steaks, and they can trade. The baker would rather have eight loaves of bread and a steak than ten loaves of bread, say. The butcher, likewise, would rather have two loaves of bread and four steaks than five steaks. Both of them are happier because they have both improved their lot through trade.

Money just makes this process easier - it represents a store of value. How can you say it's worthless when every ounce of common sense in your body tells you the exact opposite?

And what does it matter your reasons for wanting things? If someone wants to pander to their feelings of jealousy, and it makes them happier to have the stuff their neighbours have, then why begrudge them that? What does it matter to you?

As long as nobody is forcing YOU to keep up with your neighbours when you see little value in doing so, then what difference does it make? Why shit on your neighbour's desires? I mean, if it's petty to want things because your neighbour has them, is it not more petty to care whether or not your neighbour wants things because his neighbour wants them too? It's what they want - why do they need to justify it?

I mean, nobody sits around and moans about monks who want to sit around on a mountain all day and produce nothing. You could really word it in a demeaning and aggressive way, saying that these totally selfish creatures spend their whole lives in a self-absorbed pursuit of spiritual self-seeking and then have the gall to beg for food from the villagers who live nearby. How is this any better or worse than wanting a lawnmower because your neighbour has one? It's not - it's just what people want to do. So why not leave them in peace to do so?

[Starcadia]

Well, you can eat bread. :wink: But I wasn't arguing with you. I just find the psychological element of capitalism fascinating, how we place value on things as individuals and groups that often do not have actual value. I mean cash as paper, not as the symbol of value that we have to collectively remember is representative of something else of actual value. And then how this can, and does, become mass psychosis with things like microwave ovens, cell phones, MP3 players, GPS devices, and so on.

[Breezy]

Well, you can eat bread.

Who doesn't love bread? I know for a fact that I love me some bread.

[Zero]

Well, you can eat bread. :wink: But I wasn't arguing with you. I just find the psychological element of capitalism fascinating, how we place value on things as individuals and groups that often do not have actual value.

Again, though, you speak of value as though it is something concrete and measurable. I find this as useless as speaking of the curiosity of people who desire art which is "not beautiful". Who is to say what is beautiful except the person who sees the beauty in a thing? Who is to say what is valuable except the person who sees value in a thing?

[Starcadia]

Again, though, you speak of value as though it is something concrete and measurable. I find this as useless as speaking of the curiosity of people who desire art which is "not beautiful". Who is to say what is beautiful except the person who sees the beauty in a thing? Who is to say what is valuable except the person who sees value in a thing?

I'm actually talking about purely psychological and sociological value. Trends.

[Hoovie]

NERDS!!!!!!

[Maximus]

Zero I agree with you regarding the utopia idea. I personally don't believe Utopia or Communism in their truest idealistic forms is humanly posslbe. I was merely answering to someone who earlier in the thread that had said Capitalism would be like Utopia based on what you had described.

The best any of us can hope for is a society where as human beings we try to treat each other with respect regardless of race,sex,sexual preference, religious belief, political belief, etc etc. I think the commercial I've seen that best exemplifies this is the one where someone helps the old lady across the street, someone witnesses it and helps someone else, someone witnessing that does a nice thing for someone else and all the while spreading a smile. I'm sure it was a Coca-Cola commercial or something like that.

This discussion of Communism vs Capitalism is a moot point because honestly as it has been pointed out repeatedly, we have never in human history achieved either. Also most likely in human history we will never reach either due to man's innate desire for more and the fact that there is always someone who wants more than the next person regardless of the impact.

In the grand scheme of all human and worldly history our existences on this planet is but a blink of an eye, so with what little time we have we should spend it trying to find common bonds with our fellow man as we have all found here on this forum with Snus. Yes, I know big cow tears, but just stop and think about the length of your life in the grand scope of everything and I think you will all realize there are many things far more important in life to worry about. And for those of you that really want to make a difference in life, stop talking about it and actually go out and do something, even if it is simple and mundane as buying a homeless person a meal, or helping a neighbor shovel their driveway or whatever.

[Mr. Snuffleupagus]

just testing my new sig

[Mr. Snuffleupagus]

ok looks good

[Hoovie]

The best any of us can hope for is a society where as human beings we try to treat each other with respect regardless of race,sex,sexual preference, religious belief, political belief, etc etc.

I'll admit up front I haven't read the novels... I mean long ass posts precluding this one.

That said, this statement is cute. Unfortunately for you, it will never happen. NEVER HAPPEN. Idealism is great, until it runs into the buzzsaw of reality.

Race will ALWAYS be an issue. Why? Simple, because we as humans are a clan animal. We like being around those that are like us. We will always notice the differences between us, and we will never be colorblind. As long as there are easily identifiable differences between us steriotypes will exist.

Gender is perhaps the most likely to reach an even playing field of the topics mentioned. Alas, there are differences between men and women, and as such we are not equal. Equality is a myth, and the only way we'll even reach a balance is when we embrace our differences, not cast a blind eye to them.

Sexual Preference is in itself a contradiction. If it is a preference, then one has an active power to control it, to change it. On top of that, it will always be an issue because of your next topic, religion. Many (not all) of the major world religions speak clearly on the topic of homosexuality.

Religions will always disagree, it is their nature. Only one can be right (if any are) and it will be the mission of each to try to prove to the others their own validity. Thus they can never be equal or hold others to the same regard they hold themselves.

Politics is based off ones moral code, and thus will always have the same problems as religion. As long as you disagree there will never be peace.

I don't mean to come off as an asshole. I am one, and I'm ok with that. My purpose is to try to dispel this thought that if we just tried a little harder everything would be paradise. It's just not that simple.

[Starcadia]

I agree entirely, Hoovie. Differences are what keep us mobile. And it's good to have a conversation about them, from varying standpoints, since even small opinions can change, or add to, how we think.

[SSgtTrav]

You know. I've tried to hold myself back on commenting on this thread, but right now I'm drunk and can't help myself. Each and everyone of you that has tried to argue your point with the next guy is fighting a battle you can't win. Me and my friends have a simple rule that we follow when we get together: Don't talk religion and politics. Why? I'll tell you why. You can't win. I have read countless books on politics and religion. I consider myself well versed on these subjects and I love to argue. You know where arguing these points has got me? Pissed off, thats where. Why? Because they are a matter of opinion. I really don't give a shit what someone thinks about communism or capitalism. Why? Because I have formulated my own opinion and I don't give a damn what you think. Thats pretty much how everyone approaches these subjects.
I am an american who serves my country and so has almost every male and a few females in my family. I love guns and the right to own them. I love being able to voice my opinion. I love being free to do anything that's within reason. I love america and it's principles. I would gladly die for our rights and beliefs. Those same rights and beliefs that Judge Faust is bitching about as he takes advantage of them, which is his right. I defend these rights because I believe every american deserves them. I love america and if you don't then you have four choices: North,South, East, or West. Just remember one thing: Your rights extend as far as the next mans. When your rights start infringing upon the next mans rights then you've crossed the line.
You can argue till your blue in the face. You could of read every political book on the planet and have an IQ that is immesurable by human standards, but if you tell me I'm wrong about what I think when it comes to politics or religion, I'll have one answer for you: **** off. Thats why you don't argue these subjects. It's an opinion and everyone is entitled to one. So you can't win the arguement. There is no right or wrong. Just opinions. Thats my 2 cents. Take it or leave it. Thats you right.

[Maximus]

The best any of us can hope for is a society where as human beings we try to treat each other with respect regardless of race,sex,sexual preference, religious belief, political belief, etc etc.

I'll admit up front I haven't read the novels... I mean long ass posts precluding this one.

That said, this statement is cute. Unfortunately for you, it will never happen. NEVER HAPPEN. Idealism is great, until it runs into the buzzsaw of reality.

I don't mean to come off as an asshole. I am one, and I'm ok with that. My purpose is to try to dispel this thought that if we just tried a little harder everything would be paradise. It's just not that simple.

I agree Hoovie, that is why I was saying that Utopia is a myth as is paradise. That's also why I chose the words "best any of us can hope for" and "try to treat each other with respect". We all have different beliefs. Deep down I'm a realist and that was why I said also that this thread argument of Communism vs Capitalism was moot as its impossible either in a past or future sense because of our being humans.

I don't think you come off as being an asshole. I think you are just thinking like a realist. I agree with that as I consider myself a realist as well. My wife calls me an asshole all the time and I just correct her that what I'm saying is reality and that I'm just being blunt. People that don't accept the reality of where we are in life generally tend to call us assholes and I have no problem with that.

[Zero]

I'm actually talking about purely psychological and sociological value. Trends.

I understand that, but you're still being subjective is my point :

...how we place value on things as individuals and groups that often do not have actual value.

What is "actual value"? How can you tell whether something has value if there is nobody who is there to say it is valuable to them? How can we place value on something that doesn't have "actual value" when there is, I would argue, no such thing as "actual value" - how would you define it?