Discussion On President Obama

[paulwall9]

Yes, good work everyone this is a very civil and polite thread on a topic that is in so many ways the biggest argument in america right now. GREAT WORK EVERYONE

[VBSnus]

When asked if people could keep their current insurance, he said he is not familiar with what the bill says in regards to that issue, and yet he is all over TV saying "in my proposal this, and in my proposal that", so he either needs to take ownership of it, or not.

sgreger, I did a little more research on this. Here's the text of Section 102, page 16:

SEC. 102. PROTECTING THE CHOICE TO KEEP CURRENT COVERAGE.

(a) GRANDFATHERED HEALTH INSURANCE COVERAGE DEFINED. -- Subject to the succeeding provisions of this section, for purposes of establishing acceptable coverage under this division, the term ''grandfathered health insurance coverage'' means individual health insurance coverage that is offered and in force and effect before the first day of Y1 [2013] if the following conditions are met:

(1) LIMITATION ON NEW ENROLLMENT. --

(A) IN GENERAL. -- Except as provided in this paragraph, the individual health insurance issuer offering such coverage does not enroll any individual in such coverage if the first effective date of coverage is on or after the first day of Y1.

(B) DEPENDENT COVERAGE PERMITTED. -- Subparagraph (A) shall not affect the subsequent enrollment of a dependent of an individual who is covered as of such first day.

Opponents of the bill are using this section to say that private insurance will be abolished by this bill. That if you have insurance now, you're grandfathered in, but that insurance companies can't sell insurance to anyone else. And this is completely false, a deliberate obfuscation of the wording.

What this section is saying is that anyone who already has a plan can stay on that plan and thus keep the coverage they have now. However, the plan must meet federal minimum requirements in order to accept new people. Meaning, you can keep your coverage as-is but the insurance companies must follow the new laws on future sign-ups.

Some people will then say that employers may drop their plan and go with the public option, thus proving Obama wrong, but that is pure speculation. The government rightly has no idea and no say in the decisions a company makes on how they wish to provide care. Right now your company could drop their current insurance carrier and jump to another one with twice the premiums and half the care. This is nothing new.

Barack Obama did not say that he is not familiar with what the bill says on the issue. On the call you're referencing, a blogger brought up provision 102 which Investor's Business Daily said would outlaw private insurance and asked: "Will people be able to keep their insurance and will insurers be able to write new policies even though H.R. 3200 is passed?". To which Barack Obama replied: "You know, I have to say that I am not familiar with the provision you are talking about."

1) He's not familiar with a provision which outlaws private insurance because such a condition doesn't exist
2) That would be like me saying "Are you familiar with SnusOn topic 5585 which says Obama uses snus?" I'd reply I'm not familiar with the topic you are talking about. That doesn't mean I haven't read topic 5585.
3) It also reminds me of the old "When did you stop beating your wife?" trick question.
4) Investor's Business Daily is the publication which said scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn't have survived on socialized medicine because of his motor neuron disease, forgetting Stephen Hawking is a Brit. He responded that he wouldn't be alive if it weren't for NHS.

I definitely see how the quote could have been taken out of context, but you can only milk a non-issue like this so far.

I'm more concerned with people like Senator Jim Inhofe who said: "I don't have to read it, or know what's in it. I'm going to oppose it anyways."

On the one hand, I'm glad there's an honest politician out there. On the other, I'm appalled that a US Senator would blatantly say that he doesn't need to read it or even know what's in it. I don't expect them all to read it; usually bills are read by their aides and they get cliff notes. But to say he doesn't even care what's in the bill is a blatant disregard for his position as a US Senator and for his obligation to his constituents. That his comment was met with cheers is also sad.

As many have said on the end of this post, I'm glad we can keep the post civil. But we're only doing so because we're having intelligent, informed conversation. When outright ignorance is publicly lauded like in the above paragraph, it makes me lose a little faith in humanity.

[Veganpunk]

Yes, good work everyone this is a very civil and polite thread on a topic that is in so many ways the biggest argument in america right now. GREAT WORK EVERYONE

Yea, this thread and the religious one shows how great the posters are on snuson.

[sgreger1]

@VB SNUS

How old are your kids man? Boy, girl, both? I am always worried about losing my job because people are getting cut all around me and I know how expensive insurance is without employer provided insurance. I used to pay like 350$ a month just fo rmyself and I was 19! Outrageous.

Ironicly I work for an insurance company (workers comp, so not really medical insurance necessarily).

I would agree to a national not-for-profit co-op, I just don't want the government running it. I lean more towards the libertarian side and I dont feel that many government programs have been ran as well as they could have been were they to be managed by the private sector. I just got out of the army and I dont want it to be like going to the VA every time I get care. I have FREE government VA insurance now but still pay for blue shield because it is so much better.

It says on page 16 that you can have your current health insurance grandfathered in and keep it, but should you get fired, change jobs etc you will not be able to go back to private healthcare. This is my biggest issue.

In other countries they do still have private insurance, but instead of selling full insurance they stick mainly to supplemental coverage, which means i'm still paying something for it, plus paying for everyones helathcare. There is just no way it can be free, everything costs money, and I smell tax increases.



Even though it WOULD hurt private carriers, I agree we need to get rid of the pre-existing conditions denial process. Everyone needs care, but at the same time, if we do that, than people can wait untill they got hurt and then buy it. Its like buying car insurance after you got into a car accident. Not cost effective for the system or the companies running it.



QUOTE: "This is the only point I truly disagree with you on. We're already rationing care, it's just not the governments that do it. You're saying if the government has to cut costs, we might not get the care we need...insurance companies don't just cut costs, they want to make exorbitant profits. "



I hear on the news daily about how insurance companies are making 40% profit and it is a flat out lie, the insurance industry make sa pretty marginal profit nowadays especially with less employers buying group plans (since they laid everyone off). I agree we need reform, because I dont want anyone denying care, but once again, I must say we can do it without the government selling insurance. Regulating the companies to level the playing field I would agree to.


QUOTE: "maybe we just need to be a healthier nation."

This is my next concern man, I know they are going to see how much money we are losing because people are obese and smoke etc, and will start rallying to "make us healthy" to reduce cost. This will most likely come in the form of taxes on fatty foods, banning trans fats, higher cig taxes and a new tax on sugary drinks etc knowing the democrats.

My whole thing is that adding taxes and spending trillions of our dollars (that we dont have) is the exact opposite of how you get out of recession.
And I feel that this is just going to be another pet project that comes with a high price tag. If its affordable, than I am for it.. but so far there is nothing that would make me believe that is the case.



Another issue I have is that the pharmaceutical companies are donating HUGE amounts of money to Obama's health care push, which means I am expecting they stand to profit of this, as always. I am worried that if we have government ran healthcare, and they want to have vaccinations for swine flu for example, that if I opt out of getting them because I dont trust immunizations, that they will somehow punishing me because I am less "healthy" by their standards.


QUOTE: My utopia: Preventative and routine healthcare for all, availability of harm reducing and healthy options without subsidy or lobbyist interest, and affordable catastrophic insurance available to all at reasonable prices.


The ONE thing I can agree on, and I dont know if gov healthcare will effectively bring it, is the need for preventative care. Costs could be cut greatly if people got regular check ups and didnt wait untill they are in stage 3 cancer before goign to see the doctor (because no one caught it earlier). This is a huge potential for cost containment and I would like to see any bill that is voted on include a big thing about preventative care.


And obviousely the lobbyests need to go, but we know that they will not.





All and all I think we agree for the most part about the need for reform and to make things fair, affordable, and of good quality when it comes to health care, but I truly feel that Obama's plan has too much deception around it for me to trust it just yet. To me all I see Obama as is Bush #2 with his out of control spending, his continuing of the patriot act, wars still wasting up all of our money etc etc etc. It seems like the same people arerunning the show but just lobbying to a different group of people. And to me that is not what we established government to do.

</rant>

[sgreger1]

@ VB SNUS

QUOTE: "Some people will then say that employers may drop their plan and go with the public option, thus proving Obama wrong, but that is pure speculation."

Well if employers drop their health coverage (which will cost more because of the new stricter regulations on insurance companies), than they can just pay an 8% tax and let everyone be under Obama care. This is by all definitions the cost effective option, and companies are all about making money and being cost effective. Most will drop their coverage and just pay into the Obama Care.
To me it is not speculation to say this, because if I owned a company and am spending a fortune on health care, and a cheaper option comes around, I will choose the cheaper option because it affects my bottom line: TO MAKE MONEY


QUOTE: "I'm more concerned with people like Senator Jim Inhofe who said: "I don't have to read it, or know what's in it. I'm going to oppose it anyways." "


I agree completely with this. There are democrats who have said the same thing about how they dont need to read and scrutinize it, and I disagree with it when EITHER side does this, because WE ARE PAYING THEM TO DO THIS AS OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS, and they get paid quite well. If I, a 23 year old citizen can take time to read the questionable parts of the bill, I dont see why these congressman feel they do not have to.



QUOTE: "..... it makes me lose a little faith in humanity."

LMFAO, yah I definately would have to call shinaniganz on both parties and on all politicians in general nowadays, it has gotten outright rediculous.

[paulwall9]

LOL!

[sgreger1]

Btw, is anyone planning on voting 3rd party this next election? I still don't think they can win, but we should do it as a form of protest against the 2 party domination of our government. Both parties seem to get the same evils accomplished, and every election we just vote on someone new to come in and rob us, spending trillions along the way. I would like to see someone that is not an established ((menaing, already lobbied by someone) politician take the stage, just an honest american who has some ideas about how to run things and gives it his best.

[paulwall9]

That is something that I think we as americans all need to think about! We are supposed to run the country as it's citizen and the government is supposed to help enforce and listen to us which is not what it is doing!! I think a third party member might just be exactly what we need again. The politicians are supposed to be scared of us not the other way around!!LOL

Or as my grandfather would say"The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others."!

[sgreger1]

That is something that I think we as americans all need to think about! We are supposed to run the country as it's citizen and the government is supposed to help enforce and listen to us which is not what it is doing!! I think a third party member might just be exactly what we need again. The politicians are supposed to be scared of us not the other way around!!LOL

Or as my grandfather would say"The Second Amendment is in place in case the politicians ignore the others."!

Thats damn right, the second ammendment is to protect the first.

And government has become corrupt, overtaxing, and outright scandelous.


Citizens, not subjects!

(To tie this in w/ healthcare debate, government taking over healthcare will not accomplish the above)

[paulwall9]

I think that the problem is Corporate America. There are still lots of good hard working etihical citizens left! But corprate American has become to superficial and with that has come a loss of moral and ethics.
Alot of people just don't care about being honest or true anymore. Why I have no idea! But in the good days you used to be able to take people's word for things! Now you have to read the fine print if you know what I mean!

It is all very sad especially considering that this is the land where a bucnch of traders, hunters, farmers and fishermen beat the most powerful country in the world that was Britain! They did it because they believed in something better and were ready to sacrifice for the good of everyone. Now it's all about what can be gained for ones self. Or for others what hand outs can I get. The majority of the nation has lost the sense of community and unity it once had and to me this is very sad Indeed!

[sgreger1]

@ Paula Wall 9


I think this is just an inevitable byproduct of having a large country unfortunately. Hard to have community level stuff when you live in LA. Where everyone doesnt know your name lol.

Its easy for politicians to control things because if the news says that the whole nation is behind Obama's health care proposal you figure "well they must be out there somewhere", when in reality WELL under half of the population actually agree with it. But its easy to manipulate things with the media etc.

Capitalism is great, but we can't sell our soul for money either, and that is what most of corporate america has done. Look at Enron, at Bernie Madoff etc.

[VBSnus]

Heh, you've just hit on my secret shame, both of you. Like I said, I've always been a Republican and a conservative...when you're self employed and make good money, you almost have to be. But at the same time I've been seeing more and more where the Republican way is Corporate rule, which I'm not cool with either.

The whole thing is corrupt. Even IF Obama was 100% pure of heart when he went to DC, there's no way he could remain that way once he got there. Our political system is hell.

It reminds me of the book The Stand by Stephen King, not sure if you've read it. The "good" survivors of a plague which wiped out 99% of humanity start a community in Boulder, CO. Towards the end of the book one of the main characters wants to leave because it's getting too political; people are campaigning to run the law department, guys who don't want to give to the community are running for office, etc. The start of the civilization which brought the plague about to begin with. Kind of a cool plot point there.

At this point, there WILL be spending, there WILL be government, and I'd much rather see my tax money go towards health options for the nation than wars, banks, car companies, newspapers, and whoever the hell else we're bailing out nowadays. I know it's a defeatist attitude, but in a way it's all we've got at this point. It seems like veterans, the middle class, entrepreneurs, and the poor are all getting the purple headed shaft while the big businesses are enjoying all the benefits. While it is their right, that doesn't mean it's the right way to run a country. And even the companies that are failing give the ex-CEO a fat separation...only the middle-class peons are going home empty handed.

As for the third party, I want to see a good one. I don't agree with Libertarians on all issues because they're still too conservative. I don't believe in trickle down economics anymore; we've learned that the people on top can turn off the faucet. If anything, I guess I'm more of a left-leaning libertarian. The third party thing always makes me think of a part in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series:

"It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like to straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"

And as for my kids, they're 5 and 7. Even though I can't get insured my wife and kids are insured. My wife was originally denied because she went to a chiropractor a few years ago and they called that "back trauma", but we finally got her through. I pay about $360 a month for them.

Even though it WOULD hurt private carriers, I agree we need to get rid of the pre-existing conditions denial process. Everyone needs care, but at the same time, if we do that, than people can wait untill they got hurt and then buy it. Its like buying car insurance after you got into a car accident. Not cost effective for the system or the companies running it.

Which is why there would have to be a mandate, like car insurance. Force them to compete by breaking the state line barriers on life insurance, passing regulation on who they must insure and what they must offer, and give a tax credit to families...I wouldn't mind that. No public option necessary.

Insurance companies actually make 2-4% profits, but that adds up to $8bn+ a year. They'd make more, but they have a huge overhead, 30-40%, because of executive pay, advertisements, etc. A government program wouldn't have those, but at the same time a non-profit would also solve this issue.

This will most likely come in the form of taxes on fatty foods, banning trans fats, higher cig taxes and a new tax on sugary drinks etc knowing the democrats.

Yeah, I hate that. if it's not one extreme it's the other. Instead of being a friend of the farmer and leveling the playing field between megafarms and independents, instead of removing unfair taxes on things like sugar and removing subsidies on corn, they'll just tax the symptom of the problem.

Costs could be cut greatly if people got regular check ups and didnt wait untill they are in stage 3 cancer before goign to see the doctor (because no one caught it earlier)

Agreed wholeheartedly. I just shelled out $700 for a physical because I feel that it's important. I never go to the doctor for anything, not because of lack of health insurance but because I've always been taught to try to deal with problems yourself instead of weighing yourself down with drugs. But at the same time, learning what's going on in there is a big deal.

they want to have vaccinations for swine flu for example, that if I opt out of getting them because I dont trust immunizations, that they will somehow punishing me because I am less "healthy" by their standards.

This worries me too. My wife and I just got our son his last round of boosters, and I honestly hate doing it. Why inject my kid with more crap than he needs? Safe or not, they DO contain a lot of harmful materials they add up.

Man, I need to get back to work.

[paulwall9]

Yeah I feel you man. I also live in a big a## city so I see what you mean. I just feel sad that money really has ruled the roost for a long time now!!

[sgreger1]

To me Obama's plan sounds like a systematic takeover, look at how he went after the banks, then some other private companies like the automotive sector, and now healthcare. Where does it end?

Well today I bring you the latest thing that smells like commies to me:

Bill introduced that would allow government to shut off your internet if it deems the need to. It can pull the plug on your home computer if a national emergency is declared, under the guise of this somehow providing you "secuirty"

Sounds like what Iran has going on to me, but hey maybe im just a conspiracy theorist.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10320096-38.html

[sundog]

I try to vote for both Democrats and Republicans simply to make sure I'm not re-electing an incumbent. If they won't impose term limits on themselves, then we have to. It's the time in office that makes them more and more corrupt. Limit that time!