holy crap! look at this! they are marching on the capitol!!

[sgreger1]

@ Slydel.

Great point about how our own companies screw us, this has always beena big question to me. Everyonethinks they are rich in the US so even our own companies charge us more, this is retarded.

@ VB_snus:

You are right, it does not need to be in the constitution, HOWEVER, for people to say that it is currently a right is a false statement. At this point in time, health care is not a right.

Also, speed limits and smoking bans do not constitute rights either, just laws.

@snusdog:

I am a big believer in the theory that most of the nonesense in the world is controlled from some international crime syndicate of a handfull of people. It just makes too much sense, our presidents have been like puppets for at least 100 years.

But who can stop it?


However I would like to make a correction in that you state "when unemployment raises to 5%" it will all end basicly. Is this talking retrospectively or describing the future? Because unemployment rates are officially at around 10% and estimates claim that the real number may actually be higher.


Yes, the fed will try to make our debt look more attractive by raising the rate of return other countries get for buying it. They will do this as well as print more money and inflate us into oblivion).

We have been taking the easy way out and just putting a bandage on this thing since the great depression, this needs to stop, no more bandaids in the form of credit cards and stimulis plans. We need to start generating real wealth again in this country.

[sgreger1]

I know this is off topic a little, but has anyone seen the new Baucus bill for health care?


980$ fine for not having insurance, but they cant deny me if I just buy it when im sick, and they still are required to offer me an affordable rate.
So why not just pay the fine and goto the emergency room, that would save me a fortune. Or even just buy coverage on my way to the hospital if I get sick?

[VBSnus]

I know this is off topic a little, but has anyone seen the new Baucus bill for health care?


980$ fine for not having insurance, but they cant deny me if I just buy it when im sick, and they still are required to offer me an affordable rate.
So why not just pay the fine and goto the emergency room, that would save me a fortune. Or even just buy coverage on my way to the hospital if I get sick?

Baucus is an idiot, and so are all the conservative pundits who are trying to tie this to Obama and the rest of congress. The blue dog bill has been crap from day one and most people acknowledge that.

[sgreger1]

I know this is off topic a little, but has anyone seen the new Baucus bill for health care?


980$ fine for not having insurance, but they cant deny me if I just buy it when im sick, and they still are required to offer me an affordable rate.
So why not just pay the fine and goto the emergency room, that would save me a fortune. Or even just buy coverage on my way to the hospital if I get sick?

Baucus is an idiot, and so are all the conservative pundits who are trying to tie this to Obama and the rest of congress. The blue dog bill has been crap from day one and most people acknowledge that.

Well whether you like it or not, Obama and the dem controlled congress are going to have to own whatever they put out, since republicans have made it clear that they do not support it. Whatever legilsation ends up becoming law will have democrats and obama written all over it in the history books. So I hope they make it good.

Baucus may be an idiot but what is in his bill is important in this process, unfortunately.

[VBSnus]

It's not a matter of me liking it, you're twisting the story. Baucus has, against most other democrats, developed a plan in his committee in the Senate which goes against every other democrat plan. Bringing a bill to the table != putting something out.

In truth, conservative pundits were waiting in drooling adolescent wet dream anticipation of the day this plan came to the table so they could tie it to everyone else, regardless of the truth.

I'll also add this link: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/...ill-draws.html

It's from a well respected figure in the political world, as he is statistically and scientifically driven, not driven by popular opinion, punditry, or party bias. If there's one name in politics I trust, it's Nate Silver.

[Snusophile]

The problem with the healthcare debate is you have the middle class who is happy with their coverage fighting against it

Don't put words in my mouth, buddy. I would consider myself a member of the top tier of middle class and I am NOT satisfied with MY health coverage. For what I pay, and what I receive, it's a ****ing joke.

1. From now on, don't generalize and make claims that any group of people is happy with the coverage they're getting. That's asinine.

2. Don't say the American people don't want a health care system. It may look that way with all the crybaby tea-partying thugs stealing the show on TV while Fixed News Network screams into my ear some fabricated figure from some poll that some % of Americans are satisfied. Bill O'Reilly and his elitist group of red faced, cigar smoking followers do not represent REAL America, and they never will. Real America consists of the family who eats canned corn for dinner, or the slightly better off family in the other side of town that eats fresh corn for dinner instead. Neither of the two can take more than a few vacations per year, and certainly would be in DEEP shit if the breadwinner of the family ever lost his/her job. The bottom feeders probably don't have any at all.

3. Cut the crap. Health care is not a privilege, it is a human right. As a citizen of Earth, I believe every human should be entitled to care when they are ill regardless of social status. Come on, asshole. Who do you think you are? Would you rather see a corporation get bigger just because that's the American way than help some poor kids in Appalachia who have never been to a doctor in their entire lives?? This is the only civilized free country in the world that thinks this way.

4. Forget about illegal aliens, "your" tax dollars, and every other petty grievance you may have about health care reform. LOOK at the big picture.

Thank you.

EDIT: Just want to clarify, sgreger I don't have any beef with you as a person. You're a good guy. I'm aware you've served your country and want the best for it. I feel the same way, and I'm far from liberal. I love this country and I'm soon going to become it's property just to show how much it means to me. Above all, I believe healthcare reform is necessary. In the end I think this country will be glad for it on both sides.

[sgreger1]

It's not a matter of me liking it, you're twisting the story. Baucus has, against most other democrats, developed a plan in his committee in the Senate which goes against every other democrat plan. Bringing a bill to the table != putting something out.

In truth, conservative pundits were waiting in drooling adolescent wet dream anticipation of the day this plan came to the table so they could tie it to everyone else, regardless of the truth.

I'll also add this link: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/...ill-draws.html

It's from a well respected figure in the political world, as he is statistically and scientifically driven, not driven by popular opinion, punditry, or party bias. If there's one name in politics I trust, it's Nate Silver.

No what I am saying is you keep trying to say that the conservative pundits are erroneousely considering these health care bills as tied to Obama and dems in congress.

I am saying that whatever ends up being law, the dems will have to own it, so I hope they do it right the first time as this may be their only chance.

You know damn well history will regard this as Obama's name all over it as well as the dems in congress. It is most likely going to be the defining moment of his presidency, whether you choose to observe that fact or not.


Baucus looks like he is trying to **** up, his plan is terrible. I think he's pulling an arlen specter on the dems.

[VBSnus]

You know damn well history will regard this as Obama's name all over it as well as the dems in congress. It is most likely going to be the defining moment of his presidency, whether you choose to observe that fact or not.

But only because of the manipulation and encouragement of conservatives. Words like ObamaCare, Drudge putting up headlines that say ObamaCare which point to the Baucus bill, etc. are part of the conservative plan to tie his name to every possible piece of every bill.

They are doing this because they believe the health insurance bill will be his Waterloo.

Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., "If we're to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him."

It's not about the country, it's not about the fiscal impact, it's not about the taxes or the control or any of that. It's about tying the bill to Obama in the hopes of getting more votes and sinking his presidency.

[sgreger1]

Don't put words in my mouth, buddy. I would consider myself a member of the top tier of middle class and I am NOT satisfied with MY health coverage. For what I pay, and what I receive, it's a ****ing joke.

Most things I buy are a joke, both in quality and price. (<-- thats life in america)
I'm just saying that at least half of america does not want Obama's plan regardless of what poll you look at. We all want reform, but we disagree onhow to obtain it. Currently I would like to pay less for health care, but nt if it means getting our country into more debt. Therefore, since Obama's plan will get us into more debt, I do not like his plan.

1. From now on, don't generalize and make claims that any group of people is happy with the coverage they're getting. That's asinine.

Just saying, the uber rich make up maybe 1-5%, and the truly poor make up a slightly higher percentage of america. Most are middle class, and at least half of them do not want this plan, regardless of what poll you look at or what news channel you watch.

2. Don't say the American people don't want a health care system. It may look that way with all the crybaby tea-partying thugs stealing the show on TV while Fixed News Network screams into my ear some fabricated figure from some poll that some % of Americans are satisfied. Bill O'Reilly and his elitist group of red faced, cigar smoking followers do not represent REAL America, and they never will. Real America consists of the family who eats canned corn for dinner, or the slightly better off family in the other side of town that eats fresh corn for dinner instead. Neither of the two can take more than a few vacations per year, and certainly would be in DEEP shit if the breadwinner of the family ever lost his/her job. The bottom feeders probably don't have any at all.

And you wanna talk about generalizing people into groups?
To think that I hang on every word of Bill Orielly is assinine. Orielly is an ass anyways, but you have to admit, everyone that is on the side of no ObamaCare is getting more support from the country via ratings than those for ObamaCare.

For the last time, we ALL WANT REFORM, get it through your head. The debate is about how to obtain it. Pie in the sky ideas that we can all get great free or low cost coverage without it costing us a dollar or raising the deficit is retarded. Even the dems making the bills right now agree that it is going to be near impossible to meet the criteria the president laid out in his address. To me, it's about cost more than anything, as a country we need to start making smart money decisions. Blowing another trillion dollars right now just sounds like a bad idea to me.

3. Cut the crap. Health care is not a privilege, it is a human right. As a citizen of Earth, I believe every human should be entitled to care when they are ill regardless of social status. Come on, asshole. Who do you think you are? Would you rather see a corporation get bigger just because that's the American way than help some poor kids in Appalachia who have never been to a doctor in their entire lives?? This is the only civilized free country in the world that thinks this way.

As long as it is something that costs money to obtain, it is a privaledge. Obama's plan does not change the fact that it will cost money. Rights are not something you buy at the store. Top notch healthcare costs money, bottom line. Right now people who cannot afford top notch care still get care, just not gold plated care. Its like anything, you cannot have the best for free because how would the drs get paid.

Listen, we all want healthcare for everyone for free (currently everyone already has healthcare, no one can legally be denied care). In a perfect world we would have this. I am not an asshole as you so elequantly put it, I am a realist. We have to have a system that can sustain itself.

DRS WILL NOT WORK FOR FREE, MEDICAL SUPPLIES COMPANY WILL NOT GIVE AWAY FREE STUFF. Like I said, if they can find a way to pay for it, than i'm all for it.

Don't give me the big corporation profitting blah blah blah. I dont care about insurance companies, I care about Dr's who spent nearly a decade on education just to have to work for minimum wage. It will not work, and we will end up in a deficit like all other countries with socialist style healthcare.

4. Forget about illegal aliens, "your" tax dollars, and every other petty grievance you may have about health care reform. LOOK at the big picture.

The big picture is we can't just say "healthcare for everyone!" That is about as stupid as Obama throwing a trillion dollars at the economy and saying "revive economy! revive I say". We have to find a plan that makes it work. The current plans are no better than our crappy system we already have.

And furthermore, my tax dollars are not a "petty grievance". I work hard for my money, and I always have.

If I don't fight to keep the fruits of my labor, people like you will gladly come take it from my pocket like a common theif because you want to live in a house when you couldn't aford one otherwise, saying "but living ina house is a human right!" , which is what caused the recession in the first place.

EDIT: Just want to clarify, sgreger I don't have any beef with you as a person. You're a good guy. I'm aware you've served your country and want the best for it. I feel the same way, and I'm far from liberal. I love this country and I'm soon going to become it's property just to show how much it means to me. Above all, I believe healthcare reform is necessary. In the end I think this country will be glad for it on both sides

Hey man this isn't about us or any individual, this is about the country as a whole. Everyone from the tax and spend liberals to the neo-fascist conservatives want to help the country, but have different opinions on how to do it.

BOTH SIDES AGREE WE NEED REFORM, let's get that straight, but like I said, some of us think that spending a few more trillion and creating another money eating government machine is something that is best saved for better economic times.

[sgreger1]

You know damn well history will regard this as Obama's name all over it as well as the dems in congress. It is most likely going to be the defining moment of his presidency, whether you choose to observe that fact or not.

But only because of the manipulation and encouragement of conservatives. Words like ObamaCare, Drudge putting up headlines that say ObamaCare which point to the Baucus bill, etc. are part of the conservative plan to tie his name to every possible piece of every bill.

They are doing this because they believe the health insurance bill will be his Waterloo.

Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., "If we're to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him."

But only because of the manipulation and encouragement of conservatives

Dude cummon for real? Maybe people associate it with dems because the rpesident talks about it and gives national speeches about it every day, and the dems rally behind it completely and are the ones drafting the bills. All republicans are doing i standing as far back as possible and saying, "hey everyone, just remember that when this thing crashes, it was the dems creation, not ours" A smart move


To claim that this bill was not created at the hands of the dems is insanity. To say that healthcare reform is not something Obama has made himself known for, I just I just don't even know how to argue that, it's only on the news 24/7. Who do you think should own this bill, republicans?

It's not about the country, it's not about the fiscal impact, it's not about the taxes or the control or any of that. It's about tying the bill to Obama in the hopes of getting more votes and sinking his presidency.

For politicians it is always about votes and never about the country, same with the dems in congress and Obama. They just try to do what they think will be popular.

But since I am not a politician, for me it is about fiscal impact and taxes and control.

[spirit72]

I know this is off topic a little, but has anyone seen the new Baucus bill for health care?

I started to read it, then remembered that Baucus has received like $3 million in campaign donations from the insurers. Made it seem like a waste of my time, since I already had a fair idea of what I'd be reading.

980$ fine for not having insurance, but they cant deny me if I just buy it when im sick, and they still are required to offer me an affordable rate.
So why not just pay the fine and goto the emergency room, that would save me a fortune. Or even just buy coverage on my way to the hospital if I get sick?

Because buying health insurance isn't as simple as buying car insurance.

And then, when you get to the ER, you find out that you need an emergency appendectomy, but your insurance won't kick in until next week, and not be retroactive.

[sgreger1]

[quote="spirit72"]

I know this is off topic a little, but has anyone seen the new Baucus bill for health care?

I started to read it, then remembered that Baucus has received like $3 million in campaign donations from the insurers. Made it seem like a waste of my time, since I already had a fair idea of what I'd be reading.

In my opinion dems should be rallying against this guy. He is bought and sold like you said and he is sabotaging this whole thing for you guys. Even I think his plan sucks and I am right of center.

[VBSnus]

Dude cummon for real? Maybe people associate it with dems because the rpesident talks about it and gives national speeches about it every day, and the dems rally behind it completely and are the ones drafting the bills. All republicans are doing i standing as far back as possible and saying, "hey everyone, just remember that when this thing crashes, it was the dems creation, not ours" A smart move


To claim that this bill was not created at the hands of the dems is insanity. To say that healthcare reform is not something Obama has made himself known for, I just I just don't even know how to argue that, it's only on the news 24/7. Who do you think should own this bill, republicans?

Baucus. This is not the Democrat bill, it is not the Obama bill. It is the Baucus bill and everyone hates it, including Obama.

I know what you're saying, but you're not getting the point of multiple bills. HR3200 is the one the President gives speeches about and the dems rally behind.

The Baucus bill is NOT that one but conservatives are trying to deliberately obfuscate that fact and make it seem like the Baucus bill is the one everyone is rallying behind. They are calling the Baucus bill ObamaCare in order to tie him to an unpopular plan which he has never supported. It's deliberate obfuscation of the truth to drum up ignorant dissent.

Case in point, I got this from an idiot and reactionary liberal in my email:

No public option, no employer mandate, nothing but an INDIVIDUAL MANDATE and cosmetic reforms that are going to make the industry billions in additional profits.

We elected them to get change for US, and they sold us out. Obama is a fraud and a sellout.

He thought the Baucus bill was the new official bill that everyone was rallying behind because conservative pundits were calling it ObamaCare when he heard about it on the news. This email highlights why they are taking this strategy.

[sgreger1]

Okay I see what you are saying now. I though you meant this health care thing in general is not the democrats doing. None the less, like I said, if this were to get signe dinto law (which it wont) they will have to own it.

Whatever ends up being law, whether it be HR 3200 or the Baucas bill, they will have to own it.


I just hope this all works out for you guys because if not, it will severely hurt the dem party. Every dem has made this their big point so if the new system doenst work or the republicans can prove that they were lying about illegals etc it will make it hard for dems to get re-elected in the same way Bush messed it up for republicans.

[spirit72]

I just hope this all works out for you guys because if not, it will severely hurt the dem party. Every dem has made this their big point so if the new system doenst work or the republicans can prove that they were lying about illegals etc it will make it hard for dems to get re-elected in the same way Bush messed it up for republicans.

It'll hurt the Dems pretty bad(and it should), but it will kill the Republicans. At least the Dems understand something big needs to happen. The Repubs have pretty much made it clear that this about nothing to them but beating Obama. As if all the stonewalling and obfuscating they've been up to this year is going to help them.

Losing control of two branches of government last fall obviously taught them nothing, and it isn't as if the 3rd branch isn't going to get any more Republican when a Democrat nominates new justices that they can't easily reject. I suspect that they'll be in for an even bigger surprise next fall.