holy crap! look at this! they are marching on the capitol!!

[zmanzero]

VBSnus, long post, i'll read it someday. i deal with nutshells, i suppose it all works out. it's why we fart around out here anyway. and if this country ****s with my snus i'll kill 'em. see?

edit - not obama. this whole ****ing country. see?

[spike]

i'm with you zman... a jar of nails with c4 all the way!

[zmanzero]

uhh... spike? more like a pot of beans i consume as i traverse the highways expelling the fumes with the window open. even the vegetation suffers. wondrous is the ways of the odorous orifice, and even more poisonous is the wrath of my posterior. trust me. :wink:

[spike]

i'll trust you zman..

[sgreger1]

@ VBSNUS: Wow man that was a pretty good breakdown of why we suck so bad at life, and very true unfortunately. But what do we do to change it? Therein lies the million dollar question.

" I have no health insurance and can't get health insurance because I had a gallbladder attack after eating some crab. "


I dont know why youve gotten such bad luck with health insurance really. In the last 3 years alone ive had surgery to remove my appendix after it nearly ruptured, i've been in 3 seriouse car accidents, one with a bill higher than $40 k, and I see my HMO Dr regularly and I have never heard evena word of denying anything. Lol they gotta be losing money on me is all I know. I really hope you are able to get some coverage because life without health insurance can be a bitch.


The problem with the healthcare debate is you have the middle class who is happy with their coverage fighting against it, you have people who are not covered currently fighting for it, and it is just polarizing society and creating a rift between people. This is not about the rich vs the poor, this is about the middle class w/ insurance agains tthe middle class w/o insurance, which common sense would tell us is a retarded fight to be having.


What's the solution? I do not know. I suppose we will just have to wait it out and see what the government decides to make of it.

[VBSnus]

Sgreger, are you self employed or do you get group coverage through work? That's the big difference.

Sure, I could cut my pay by half and go work in a stuffy office again under some sack of monkey spunk manager who tells me to put cover letters on my TPS reports, and get coverage. But is that really the American way? Would it really be worth it to not work from home, make my own hours, be my own boss, etc?

I'm still working on my "how to fix it" manifesto. You made a great point in the Illegals post. This is the perfect storm of healthcare we have. Simultaneously the best for being great, yet the worst for being 'unfair'.

[sgreger1]

Yah frankly I think we are ****ed both ways. This is kind of the problem with our system:

We have a crisis, this time healthcare
Republicans say no big government, don't touch anything
Democrats say no coverage for the rich only, we must all have it as it is a basic thing we all need to survive

Both sides are right to an extent.
They bicker for a long time about it.
Everyone tries to make everyone else happy in an attempt to look "bipartisan".

What results is the current bill we have now, 1,000+ pages of watered down non-change. So basicly both sides get ****ed because there will be bigger government, and in reality everyone will not have it at affordable prices.


The only ones who ever stand to profit off the left/right battle in the US is the corporations. This is why the insurance industry and big pharma companies are behind this proposed "reform", so you know it has to screw the average joe in one way or another.




Re: self employment. My father was self employed his whole life and it ended with him in bankruptcy unfortunately, because he did not have the corporate safety net an office job has. There is nothing I want more than to get out of this ****ign cubicle and do my own thing, and I work tirelessly towards that ultimate goal. I imagine you are a bit older than me so your a little further ahead in that sense. But someday I would like to run my own company/ be self employed.

But, at the same time, you must remember what you trade when you decide to be self employed. Yes you don't have anyone standing over your shoulder barking about when the expense reports will be ready, but at the same time you lose that safety net of benefits that an office job comes with.

[VBSnus]

you lose that safety net of benefits that an office job comes with.

You read sage's post. What safety net? That kind of thinking is delusional, at least nowadays. Work ethic, tenure, teamwork...none of these things are truly valued anymore. Profit profit profit, that's the bottom line.

Anyways, in my case I became self employed after a kickass offer and signing a guaranteed work contract. Subcontract to a parent company and am guaranteed work and rising income for a number of years, but I also agree not to leave. Think of it as a contract like an athlete would sign. I probably have more job security than anyone in a 9-5, but the one thing I didn't expect was the way the health insurance industry operates. Extra taxes, sure, I figured on that. But being outright denied for health insurance? Who knew?

Let the cat out of the back sgreger, how old are you? I'm a wizened and sagely 29 myself.

[sgreger1]

If Obama's healthcare proposal passes, I would be happy to see people able to enjoy affordable coverage like I have for years.

However, I worry that we may be signing over more power to the government, and in return get a program that works for a couple of years, but then starts racking up unpayable debts in the long run like many other countries have. I mean our own medicare has I forget how many billion/trillion in unfunded liabilities as it stands right now.

I just hope they find a way to pay for it. I am willing to let them have it if they can make it pay for itself. The problem with that however is that the American health care provides the best money can buy, meaning its expensive. So we either need to tone down the kind of care we give out, or still pay a lot for it, because providing state of the art treatment is expensive no matter what.

[sgreger1]

Hha, I am sadly only 23 years of age. Not very sagely or wise yet, but working on it.


I read Sage's post. Thats not what I mean by security. I mean you get an array of benefits, namely helath insurance, and often times if your laid off they pay you a few more checks so at least you are able to pay the bills this month.


Of course companies are about their bottom line, profit. If I ran a corporation, that means people are investing in my company and looking for a return, it is my duty to get it for them. I dont blame anyone for making money, as long as it is done in a legal, and preferably moral way.


Sounds like you got a kickass contract than BTW. When I didn't have employer provided HC I was paying like 350 a month for basic coverage and I was like 19 years old with no health problems. Its outright robbery if you ask me.


Like I said, I am like a blue dog democrat with the health care debate. I am willing to sign off on it if they can explain how they will pay for it without crazy tax increases. His idea of going line by line cutting waste to pay for it sounds good, but he's already broken that promise once, therefore I do not trust he will do it this time either.

[spike]

same age here. i've also got employment health care, although i never use it though. i'm sure aside from breaking something or having a serious accident or health condition. i probally never will..

[Slydel]

. By the way, FDR was one of the most corrupt presidents in the history of the U.S.

Yeah, so was Nixon.

Well, yes so was Nixon.

He did not buy votes like FDR did through his programs that were aimed at areas that he had very little support. FDR may have been inspiring to many people but he still maintained his power through many cunning ways.

On a different note, health care is not a right. It is a privilege. I do not see anywhere in the U.S. Constitution that people have the right to the pursuit of happiness and .... reduced-cost health care. The unfortunate part is that it is too damn expensive. So I see the need for reform. How to do it correctly is beyond me. As an example of what goes on, a medical company will sell their drugs or equipment to many countries outside of the U.S. for a fraction of what they sell/charge them to people in the U.S. I understand the need for companies to make profits and be able to use some of those profits to continue research in other areas but why should the majority of their profits be made in the U.S.? Hell, they sell a lot of their stuff almost at cost in other countries. Why don't they spread the cost around? It is almost like world-wide socialized health care. This ends up screwing those people in the U.S. that don't have insurance and the people that have to pay too much for insurance (everybody). Insurance companies are also at fault....Hell there are so many people taking pieces of this great big pie it is almost sickening. UHC CEO a couple years back making the most money of any CEO or close to it. ABT CEO making almost $87,000 a day for every day of the year. What can you possibly do on a day to day basis to be able to make that much money? Yet, I reiterate, health care is not a right. People 30+ years ago did not go to the doctor unless they could afford to do it. Yes, people died, but others were not overburdened to pay for other peoples' medical expenses. In summary, I think the cost needs to be reduced, but socialized health care is bad idea because it might cost even more then it does now.

[VBSnus]

I do not see anywhere in the U.S. Constitution that people have the right to the pursuit of happiness and .... reduced-cost health care.

This is a really tired argument. There ARE other laws other than the constitution you know. The constitution also says nothing about regulating corporate business practices, speed limits, monopolies, minimum wage, smoking bans, etc. etc. etc. into infinity.

In fact, the 9th Amendment throws that entire "it's not in the Constitution so it's not a right" argument down the drain: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

Translation: The list of rights granted by the Constitution does not deny us of further rights. The Constitution is not the complete and total list of American rights. And therefore your "healthcare is not a right" argument has no Constitutional basis whatsoever.

[sagedil]

Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

[Snusdog]

Guys we can debate this till the cows come home but let me tell you where the real storm is brewing. Watch the unemployment numbers. When they reach a national average of 5% all hell is going to break loose. Without going into all the details, here is the zman short version:

At 5% the fed will begin to raise interest rates to offset both past and present government spending (the other option is to deflate the dollar by printing more- but to do so would crush both the US and world markets). They will opt to raise the rates.

Now here is the catch. The majority of Americans have survived this little financial crisis by using credit. At no time in history have American had so much personal debt per household.

Simultaneously, the US congress has allowed the credit card companies to introduce and maintain a sliding rate of interest. Prime + 16-18% (Just got a notice from my card company that my card was now a sliding rate). The card companies are not dumb. This is being introduced way before hand and under the radar. Nonetheless it’s being allowed to happen.

The result will be that in the near future credit card interest rates will rise as high as 30 and 40% (think about it 15% prime + 18% card = 33% rate). A vast majority of Americans will be wiped out in this first wave. Those who survive will have very little expendable income. Thus, businesses will close. Then jobs will be lost right as inflation and cost of living peaks. New home loans will be out of reach for most. The housing market will really crash.

The public response will be second only to the Civil War in this nation’s history


And the incredible thing about it—it is all completely and utterly unnecessary (just like this last banking disaster). And just like the last banking disaster, it was created by no more than the stroke of a congressman’s pen. GWB? Obama? Try multi national Corporations and banks.

Six men rule the world. And only a few people ever realize it and even fewer still actually know who they are or that they are.