Let Us Honor True Greatness!

[sgreger1]

I think Obama tries. I also think he lost over half of his disciples the other day.

It was a lose lose for him either way. If he didn't sned them he would have gone down in history as weak on terror, cut and run dem etc.

But now that he sent them, he faces the fact that half his base is pretty anti-war, and he didn't say anything bush hadn't said in the past. This is the second time he has surged thousands of troops to afghanistan since he took office.

He has missed every single deadline he claimed he would keep in the past, i.e. we would have health reform by labor day, we would have gitmo shut down asap. At the end of the day he was going to lose either way : be seen as too weak, or lose a lot of his dem/indie base.


I don't personally think we should be involved in these wars, btu I do think he took the right choice as far as politics is concerned.

[tom502]

I can't imagine Afganistan being a stable working place by the time the troop withdrawal comes. We are still in Iraq, and I suspect forever. Michael Moore has voiced his opposition, so has Dennis Kuchinick, and of course Cindy Sheehan, and they are, or were, having protest vigils over it. I think it has secured him not being re-elected. I did not vote for him, but when he won, I was hoping it would just maybe have some good change, but it seems more of the same, only worse.

[sgreger1]

I can't imagine Afganistan being a stable working place by the time the troop withdrawal comes. We are still in Iraq, and I suspect forever. Michael Moore has voiced his opposition, so has Dennis Kuchinick, and of course Cindy Sheehan, and they are, or were, having protest vigils over it. I think it has secured him not being re-elected. I did not vote for him, but when he won, I was hoping it would just maybe have some good change, but it seems more of the same, only worse.

It would take 100 years and even more money to ever make that place stable, if it's even possible at all.

Here's the equation i'm using"


(There is no measurable victory)+ (If we win we don't get to keep any of the spoils) / no return on investment = pull out now

[Judge Faust]

On the subject of Hitler:

I like to give respect where it's due... It is certainly not due here.

Was Hitler a good orator? Sure. What this doesn't tell you is that a trained chimpanzee can be a good orator... Seriously, it doesn't take much; you just have to get up on stage, look likable, and read what your speech-writers have given you. Does anyone really think that it takes any intelligence to give a speech that appeals to a rabid mob of idiots? If so, I offer 2 exhibits: Little Bush and Palin. Case closed.

Was Hitler a good strategist? Um, not quite. Sure, he overran France and Czechoslovakia... but so would have a soft summer breeze. What's telling is that he attacked the USSR, which went just as well as could be expected by anyone that knew anything about the Napoleonic wars... Oops. Outcome: all 3 attacking armies wiped out; Hitler kills himself in a bunker while Soviet bombers pound Berlin. Soviet flag flies over the ruins of the Reichstag. Talk about an epic fail...

The only bad thing about Hitler was his ethno-centric nationalism, and expansion, and anti-semiticsm.

Well, Tom, this is quite akin to saying: "Little Bush was a great guy, except for his complete misunderstanding of high-school economics, his dream of conquering the Muslim world, and his Christian fanaticism."

I'm not altogether sure that we can really analyze people if we disregard their chief policies and motivations...

[tom502]

I personally am not star struck with Hitler as the person, like people are about Obama. I am interested in the socio-economic nationalistic system, that seems to have been very effective, with no crime, no unemployment, high education, and advances in science and technology like no one ever before. Hitler was the 1st person on TV. And the suicide in the bunker is a myth and has been disproven, recently a History Channel special showed how there is no evidense, no wittnesses, and no body. He also was a good painter, and design artists. But what interests me, is a modern era empire, that really stands out, and was more socio-technologically advanced than anyone else. Now of course they made some very big mistakes, and fell. Which I see the US doing as well, just a slower process. But it seems hard for a diehard Communist to acknowledge anything good out the 3rd Reich, even though the USSR and USA stole all their science, and then the US used it to bomb Japan, and the USSR to send a rocket into space. From a historical event, the 3rd Reich stands out, in many ways, good and bad, much like the Roman Empire, and Stalinist USSR too. It's interesting, but problems occure when people take these dead people and dead empires personally, like you bad mouthin' Jesus.

[RRK]

the USSR and USA stole all their science, and then the US used it to bomb Japan

:?:

[chainsnuser]

I am interested in the socio-economic nationalistic system, that seems to have been very effective, with no crime, no unemployment, high education, and advances in science and technology like no one ever before.

That's easy to understand: all was financed on credit, financed through expropriations, later financed by homicide and lootings.

There was nothing 'special' about the nazi-regime. All 'good' things that were accomplished by the nazis were easily possible on the background of a historically grown, technologically advanced cultural nation with 80 million people, and a government that spent money as if there was no tomorrow (and later had to start an unwinnable war before anybody could demand the money back). Even without the war and the genocide this regime of a madman and his bunch of incompetent bastards would have ended in a collapse rather sooner than later.

The first TV was developed long before the nazis took over, the same applies for rocket science ... and so on.

The nazi-assholes were responsable for nothing else but the almost total devastation of half of Europe (including their own country) and probably the largest genocide in human history.

Really, there is nothing admirable about any aspect of the nazi-regime. Every other government would have done better in every regard.

And since many people here constantly critisize the U.S.-government (the former or the actual), I can only say that Bush and Obama had/have at least the ability to pay their bills. During the war the nazis sent almost every bill back as "zahlbar nach dem Endsieg" (payable after the final victory).

Cheers!

[Roo]

Thank you Chainsnuser. I was waiting for you to chime in. Tom, give it up. Your argument is not only terrible, but trust me it's offensive to not only the average person like me who is far removed from the events, but to almost every single German, Jew, and the millions of others, still very much alive, who were directly affected by his legacy. Germany really struggles hard to live it down, and they are a great and proud nation. It is really not good for conversation or constructive dialog, and I do think it's truly offensive, all "PC" bullshit aside.

And Judge, your comment about the oratory ease of winning over a mass of idiots, or something to that effect, was a shame. At least to me, as I take great interest in the historical circumstances that lead up to, and allow the potential for the creation of, the cult of personality. To say that the followers of one of history's many twisted and maniacal political leaders were "idiots" is not only to vastly oversimplify the complexity of the phenomenon, but it's severely condescending and disregarding to the populations involved. Do you think the politically faithful Russians under Stalin or the mid-century Chinese were simply stupid? If so that's a wasteful answer to many interesting questions about the nature and politics of us as human beings. And Hitler was most definitely a riveting speaker. He couldn't have achieved what he did were he not. He makes the few hairs I have stand on end and I hardly understand the son of a bitch.

[Ainkor]

I can only say that Bush and Obama had/have at least the ability to pay their bills.

Hitler's a ****head, but then again so are/where many other leaders throughout history. I did have to laugh at that line though :P

[Judge Faust]

And Judge, your comment about the oratory ease of winning over a mass of idiots, or something to that effect, was a shame. At least to me, as I take great interest in the historical circumstances that lead up to, and allow the potential for the creation of, the cult of personality. To say that the followers of one of history's many twisted and maniacal political leaders were "idiots" is not only to vastly oversimplify the complexity of the phenomenon, but it's severely condescending and disregarding to the populations involved.

My comment was flippant, but not illogical.

Our theories on the importance of public speaking apparently are not aligned. And, to tell you the truth, I find your comments somewhat disappointing. There is a current movement among Germans to excuse their own complicity in these horrendous crimes against humanity on the basis of Hitler's apparently magical oratory skills... And you seem to have bought into this theory hook, line, and sinker.

I'm sorry, but that's not how the world works. An upstanding peace-loving civilian will NOT be talked into cold-blooded murder, no matter how good a speaker the orator happens to be. German society was NOT a community of let-it-ride hippies prior to Hitler's emergence. It was a ticking time bomb fueled by resentment towards the concessions of WWI, anger at the crumbling national economy, and a healthy dose of a holier-and-whiter-than-though attitude. In short, Hitler did nothing to sway the Germans to his side - he simply told them exactly what they wanted to hear. To wit, that all the non-white non-capitalist individuals were responsible for all that ailed Germany.

In conclusion, I stand by my statement. People tend to be idiots; tell them what they want to hear, and they'll follow you into the mythical fires of Hell. Germans were no different. They're still not any different - except perhaps in their unusual levels of xenophobic aggression. This little insignificant nation has been a thorn in the world's side ever since the Roman ages... Can you honestly recall ANY German history that does not involve the slaughter of "others?" Tutenborg Forest, the Crusades, the Holy Roman Empire, WWI, WWII... And now Afghanistan. Wow... Somehow, I don't think that it really took a Hitler to transform the Germans into a nation of militant savages...

[Roo]

So... How do you really feel about the Germans? OK Judge, I agree with part of what you said -- I think it was the culmination of many factors, and the society at the time was indeed a ticking timebomb for disaster, and it was certainly not his oratory skills alone... Didn't mean to imply that, and I haven't "bought" into any theories whatsoever. You yourself pointed out many aspects of what led to the regime taking power and carrying out the atrocities. That's what I was looking for, not simply that they were idiots. Thank you for being more specific, but no thank you for your blanketing disregard of an entire people. I believe most of us are born with the same moral and emotional potential, it is our experience that makes us who we are, and I'm far more intersted in taking that approach to understanding history than in using prejudice and bigotry. I'm not accusing you of that specifically, but you do seem to have a pretty solid hatred for the Germans in general. I don't know about you, but I don't take responsibility for the deeds of my ancestors, I just try my best to understand the circumstances that led to them.

[cobrageezer]

When you do decide to emigrate, Judge, I'll come and help you pack!

[sgreger1]

Chainsnus really nailed it here.


And judge, how can you talk about the germans and how they have always been a bunch of militants, lusting for blood, yet you cannot admit the same about the "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan and Iraq? Is their history not one of militant extremism, wanting to conquer other lands etc? The difference is at leas tthe germans, after 2 world wars, still manage to have a decent country.

If your "freedom" fighters ever did obtain victory, they wouldn't do anything with it, they would instead go back to their villages and resume the oppression of their people like they were doing before we came there. Uneducated and without anything better to do than spread religious fanaticism around.

You criticize Bush for being a religion fanatic, and yet you don't see militant Islamics as religiouse fanatics.


-------

Now, back to Hitler, I just saw Inglorious Basterds yesterday, it was awesome. Has anyone else seen it?


I love how you guys pick and chose your

[tom502]

I've just seen the original Inglorious Bastards. It was pretty good.

[sgreger1]

Yah the one with brad pitt is pretty good. Would have been cool if the events would have really played out like that.

Kind of curious what happened to Hitler in the end. For a long time people thought he shot himself in that bunker, untill they analyzed the bodies found and realized it wasn't him. No confirmed evidence of him having died as of yet. But at least we know he is deadby now due to age/diseases he had.