POLITICAL: "You lie" turns out to be true. Illegal

[sgreger1]

To steal a headline from Fark.com:

"The health bill, which wasn't going to cover illegals, then absolutely would not cover illegals, then would freeze hell solid before it covered illegals, then I totally pinky-promise will not ever cover illegals, is going to cover illegals"


Do you feel that illegals should be covered in HC reform? Will it save us money by keeping them out of the ER.

One thing we know to be true is that Rep Joe Wilson was correct when he said "You lie" to Obama's claim that the health care reform would not include any benefits for illegal aliens.

What do you think the right thing to do is, cover illegals, or include an enforcement mechanism to verify immegration status before providing services.


Verify before treating? UNPOSSIBLE!

Some argue that those living here illegally would not be required to purchase insurance since they live off the grid and therefore will not be subject to the mandate that all Americans buy health insurance. This means that when they go to the hospital, it would be just like the current system where they are not insured and just go directly to the ER. Some claim that we would be saving money by allowing them to purchase health insurance.

What say you?






http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...om-coverage/?m

[sgreger1]

Forgot to add that currently the Senate bill has language excluding illegal immigrants from coverage however the mechanism to accomplish this is removed. A simple fix would be to add language mandating all employers utilize E-verify however that would be racist so it will never happen.

[sagedil]

OK, so you just admitted that the Bill currently before the Senate DOESN'T cover illegals. Yet the post above says it will.


So, umm, you lied....

Sheesh, do you have any idea just how pathetic this all comes off as????

[sagedil]

A simple fix would be to add language mandating all employers utilize E-verify however that would be racist so it will never happen.

Maybe because of all the problems still not yet fixed???????

http://epic.org/privacy/surveillance...7/default.html

http://www.privacydigest.com/2009/03...%20agrees%20us

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=16126268

http://www.fcw.com/Articles/2009/07/...em-flawed.aspx

[sgreger1]

OK, so you just admitted that the Bill currently before the Senate DOESN'T cover illegals. Yet the post above says it will.


So, umm, you lied....

Sheesh, do you have any idea just how pathetic this all comes off as????

Cummon sage, I know you understand how the world works better than that. The bill says no illeglas, but stops at that, with no enforcement. It would be like me saying no robbing banks, but not including an enforcement mechanism, i.e. you go to jail.

If we had laws with no enforcement, than it's not much of a law at all, don't you think?

I didn't lie, the bill DOES effectively allow for illegals to use the system. Why are you letting politicians play politics with your mind like this sage, you know damn well that writing on paper "No illeglas" will not actually make that happen in the real world unless the legislation also enforces it through a mechanism described in said bill.

[sgreger1]

A simple fix would be to add language mandating all employers utilize E-verify however that would be racist so it will never happen.

Maybe because of all the problems still not yet fixed???????

http://epic.org/privacy/surveillance...7/default.html

http://www.privacydigest.com/2009/03...%20agrees%20us

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=16126268

http://www.fcw.com/Articles/2009/07/...em-flawed.aspx

I'm not saying use that specific system, but create some type of system specific to healthcare, like maybe a HC card and like a drivers license it would verify your residency status before you are allowed to get one.

Not saying we shouldn't treat illeglas, they are people too, but we don't want to encourage health tourism. If they go, they should have to pay the full price, with no tax payer subsidies.

[justintempler]

sgreger1,
You'd fit right in, in Congress, you bundle two seperate issues together and then you can't reach a consensus, so nothing ever gets done.

Healthcare for illegals isn't the problem.

The fact that they are illegal is the problem.

Deport them or give them a path to citizenship.

Fix that problem and the healthcare issue takes care of itself.

[sgreger1]

sgreger1,
You'd fit right in, in Congress, you bundle two seperate issues together and then you can't reach a consensus, so nothing ever gets done.

Healthcare for illegals isn't the problem.

The fact that they are illegal is the problem.

Deport them or give them a path to citizenship.

Fix that problem and the healthcare issue takes care of itself.

Hmm, perhaps that gig would pay more than my current one.

You are correct in that they are two "different" issues. But one is directly related to the other. The whole point of this HC reform is to stop the constant inflation of HC costs, insure more people, make it cheaper, and supposedly do all of this without it costing 1$ to the deficit.

The problem is that illegals make up millions upon millions of our population, therefore they need to be addressed in the bill. Either they cannot use taxpayer subsidized exchanges etc, or we need to cover them but make them pay their fair share like all other Americans.


Because if we let this bill pass without addressing this, than the system will forever remain broken, like it has for years. By allowing them to be part of the system without demanding they pay into it like the rest of us, we are just increasing the incentive for health tourism.

[sagedil]

OK, so you just admitted that the Bill currently before the Senate DOESN'T cover illegals. Yet the post above says it will.


So, umm, you lied....

Sheesh, do you have any idea just how pathetic this all comes off as????

Cummon sage, I know you understand how the world works better than that. The bill says no illeglas, but stops at that, with no enforcement. It would be like me saying no robbing banks, but not including an enforcement mechanism, i.e. you go to jail.

If we had laws with no enforcement, than it's not much of a law at all, don't you think?

I didn't lie, the bill DOES effectively allow for illegals to use the system. Why are you letting politicians play politics with your mind like this sage, you know damn well that writing on paper "No illeglas" will not actually make that happen in the real world unless the legislation also enforces it through a mechanism described in said bill.

Wow

That is not what you said in your first post, you said the bill WOULD cover illegal aliens. You lied.

So what you are really saying is you don't think the enforcement mechanism is strong enough. So would you argue that smoking pot really is legal since they aren't searching me with dogs every day as I leave the house, not insisting I pee in a cup every day???

If you were in debate class, you would get an F on that one

[sagedil]

Either they cannot use taxpayer subsidized exchanges etc, or we need to cover them but make them pay their fair share like all other Americans.

Perhaps we would waste less time here if you actually knew what you were talking about. The exchanges are not tax payer subsidized. The ONLY taxpayer money that comes in is giving individuals subsidies, that they can go use on the exchange. So unless said illegal has a valid social security number, he can't get any tax payer money to use.

So are you saying that it should be illegal for a illegal alien to use his OWN money to purchase health insurance????????

[sgreger1]

Wow

That is not what you said in your first post, you said the bill WOULD cover illegal aliens. You lied.

Despite your play on words, illegals WILL be covered.
/not lying

So what you are really saying is you don't think the enforcement mechanism is strong enough. So would you argue that smoking pot really is legal since they aren't searching me with dogs every day as I leave the house, not insisting I pee in a cup every day???

If you were in debate class, you would get an F on that one

Sage, there is no enforcement mechanism. 0. They are not even legally allowed to ask about your imegration status before treating.

All I am saying is, why the **** is that? If they are going to write in the bill that " Umm.. this shouldnt be used by illegals, umkay" but then leave it at just that one sentence, all they have accomplished is a political strategy to get poeple like you to believe illegals won't be covered, when in fact they will be, do to a lack of enforcement.


With smoking pot, if you get caught smoking pot, you get a [enforcement mechanism] fine/jail time. [/enforcement mechanism]

With HC, they cannot even legally ask if you are illegla or not. Do you see the difference? If this was a debate class, I would have to envoke the "apples and oranges" argument against you.

[justintempler]

..therefore they need to be addressed in the bill.

No they don't.

They are only related because Congress doesn't have the political will to deal with the illegal immigration issue. It's time to shit or get off the pot.

Do you want a solution or do you want to keep putting bandaids and ducktape on the problems without ever fixing anything?

...and you wonder why this country is so screwed up. :roll:

[sgreger1]

Either they cannot use taxpayer subsidized exchanges etc, or we need to cover them but make them pay their fair share like all other Americans.

Perhaps we would waste less time here if you actually knew what you were talking about. The exchanges are not tax payer subsidized. The ONLY taxpayer money that comes in is giving individuals subsidies, that they can go use on the exchange. So unless said illegal has a valid social security number, he can't get any tax payer money to use.

So are you saying that it should be illegal for a illegal alien to use his OWN money to purchase health insurance????????

Exmployers will have to either provide HC or pay an 8% tax to allow them to be covered via the exchange. If you don't get insurance, you are given a fine of some type, the amount which I don't know since it keeps changing.

NEWS FLASH: Illegals use other's SS numbers incase you didn't know. Like I said before, if you would have read it, I think they SHOULD not only be allowed to, but be forced to use their own money to pay for it.

[sgreger1]

..therefore they need to be addressed in the bill.

No they don't.

They are only related because Congress doesn't have the political will to deal with the illegal immigration issue. It's time to shit or get off the pot.

Do you want a solution or do you want to keep putting bandaids and ducktape on the problems without ever fixing anything?

...and you wonder why this country is so screwed up. :roll:

What is the bandaid in this scenario? I think the fix would be to sort out the immegration mess we have and either depot or allow them to become citizens (through the regular way, not via another amnesty).

How does this HC reform bill "fix anything".

[justintempler]

What is the bandaid in this scenario? I think the fix would be to sort out the immegration mess we have and either depot or allow them to become citizens (through the regular way, not via another amnesty).

How does this HC reform bill "fix anything".

The bandaid is trying to deal with immigration issues in a healthcare bill.

Fix immigration and then it there is no need for dealing with it in healthcare legislation.