So the Gunny called...

[Roo]

I think the goal, should be to re-educate them, and get them cleansed of this Islam. This would have a more lasting and effective end goal, than just trying to fight them while they yell "Allahu Akbar" and blow themselves up and everything around them.

Brilliant plan there Tom, I can see you've got your thinking cap on. If we are having such difficulty convincing them to not endorse what the Taliban is trying to impose, what the fck makes you think they will be convinced to abandon their RELIGION. Oh but you aren't talking about convincing, sorry, you used the term "cleanse". Religious cleansing. Re-education. Why don't you just go ahead and suggest concentration camps, Hitler boy? Your posts are getting more unbelievable every day.

I think the goal, should be to re-educate them, and get them cleansed of this Islam. This would have a more lasting and effective end goal, than just trying to fight them while they yell "Allahu Akbar" and blow themselves up and everything around them.

I'm sorry, I really don't like to get personal here, but I sure hope that's the dumbest thing I read for a while. Sounds like the start of WWIII to me. I'm sure all of the nuclear armed Islamic nations wouldn't mind at all Tom, and neither would the rest of the world. Or were you thinking world-takover? Should I tell my best friend who is working for the DOD as a Human Terrain Analyst over there right now, meeting with tribal leaders, trying to sort this mess out a little? Maybe he can start with a few impressionable youngsters and I can get you some early feedback on how it works out...

[sgreger1]

Oh this is going to be epic.

Anyone want some?

[paulwall9]

My opinon, is this, Islams, muslims, and other religons of the sort though different have been dealt with extremely wrong and harshly in the past. I mean check out the crusades Christians were steping all over them. so in reality this is something thats has been brewing for more than likely hundreds of years and is something that will not be easily resloved. they don't want oil or material things they want us to leave so they can practice there religons in there own ways. right now they ARE choosing the extremist form of islam but not for reasons that are unjustified really(I am in now way defending what they are doing just stating some facts). When you shit all over a certain group of people for yrs and yrs and yrs this is what happens and they arent even just targeting american it is a global jihad they are seeking! I think after some retributions are made, people wise up and everyone just leaves people the hell alone and stops pushing there own beliefs onto people whose buisness that it is therwise not theres to push things will get better. As far as re-educating them, well that would generally be the same thing as the crusades asnd it didnt work then and I do not believe it woukld work now!

I hope everyone is well and make peace on the forums people lol!!!

[tom502]

Well, I think we all do agree, that we can't "win" this current situation. Whether I think re-education camps might work or not, it's not going to happen anyway. So we either stay, and more die, and no "win", or we get out now. If it was a vote, I would vote "get out now".

[sgreger1]

My opinon, is this, Islams, muslims, and other religons of the sort though different have been dealt with extremely wrong and harshly in the past. I mean check out the crusades Christians were steping all over them. so in reality this is something thats has been brewing for more than likely hundreds of years and is something that will not be easily resloved. they don't want oil or material things they want us to leave so they can practice there religons in there own ways. right now they ARE choosing the extremist form of islam but not for reasons that are unjustified really(I am in now way defending what they are doing just stating some facts). When you shit all over a certain group of people for yrs and yrs and yrs this is what happens and they arent even just targeting american it is a global jihad they are seeking! I think after some retributions are made, people wise up and everyone just leaves people the hell alone and stops pushing there own beliefs onto people whose buisness that it is therwise not theres to push things will get better. As far as re-educating them, well that would generally be the same thing as the crusades asnd it didnt work then and I do not believe it woukld work now!

I hope everyone is well and make peace on the forums people lol!!!

Well i'd have to agree except we are not pushing christianity on them even a little tiny bit. How do you explain their actions prior to the US occupation? They have been at it since way before 2001.

Also, when people mention the crusades, all they can think about is the christians. Is anyone else aware that it was not just the christians out for blood? The whole world was seeking domination, not just christians, yet they are the only ones remembered in history for doing something bad.

Even when we weren't in Iraq or afghanistan they were calling for death to the west. Re-education will not work, we will not win the war since politicians tie our hands, therefore withdrawl is the only option.


If we withdrawl then the militants can go back to oppressing religious freedom by killing anyone who doens't practise a certain form of Islam. The shia's and the Suni's can go back to fighting against each other.

Muslim's don't need us to be at war, they have been at civil war with themselves (Shia Sunni) forever. let them kill each other = free.

[ShaulWolf]

Even when we weren't in Iraq or afghanistan they were calling for death to the west. Re-education will not work, we will not win the war since politicians tie our hands, therefore withdrawl is the only option.


If we withdrawl then the militants can go back to oppressing religious freedom by killing anyone who doens't practise a certain form of Islam. The shia's and the Suni's can go back to fighting against each other.

Muslim's don't need us to be at war, they have been at civil war with themselves (Shia Sunni) forever. let them kill each other = free.

Yep. They've been at it for a good long while, following right after the death of Muhammad when there was debate who would be his successor. Things got ugly, and have been getting uglier since. We just happened to stir the pot some and gave them a common enemy. If we leave, then they go back to hating and targeting each other. If we stay, they still hate each other, but will primarily target us since they hate us more.

Solution to the problem? None. Too many deep seated issues to even remotely begin to unravel, and too many who don't have the access, motivation, or will to solve any of the issues. Why would some of the extremist imams want to give up their power by preaching from a more moderate stance? Why would politicians try to educate masses in peace when war and hatred is such a compelling argument? It's easier to make people afraid than it is to convince them otherwise.

And seriously, how easily do you think it's going to be to get any Muslim culture to show us trust? A lot of the regions there have developed a huge sense of distrust and hatred, justified and blind, of Western powers. This conversation is for an entirely different thread though.

For now my sights are mainly set on Intel. I'd like to do more fieldwork than analysis, but we'll see how that goes. Otherwise, I'd like to get into Infantry.

[justintempler]

Well i'd have to agree except we are not pushing christianity on them even a little tiny bit.

Time for a reality check....

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MbJ63Y4R0dA&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed>

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kamran..._b_195973.html

Kamran Pasha
Posted May 4, 2009 | 04:47 PM (EST)
Bible and Guns: Why Soldiers Who Proselytize Strengthen Our Enemies

Many Americans have expressed shock at news that some U.S. soldiers have been seeking to use their positions of power in Iraq and Afghanistan to preach Christianity. But this does not come as news to Muslims, who have been long aware of these proselytizing efforts at the end of a gun.

The Pentagon's General Order 1 prohibits American troops from attempting to convert people in foreign countries. Nonetheless, this activity has been rampant since the United States military first entered Afghanistan and Iraq. In this month's Harper's Magazine, Jeff Sharlet's article "Jesus killed Mohammed: The Crusade for a Christian Military" provides troubling insight into the efforts of fundamentalist Christian churches to turn our armed forces into a modern-day Knights Templar, fighting infidels on behalf of the Church.

As a person of faith myself, I understand the urge to share spiritual witness. Both Christianity and Islam believe they have a message from God for all humanity, and as a result, believers in both traditions naturally seek to engage others and share their faith. And I have no problem entering into discussions and debate with others on matters of religion. Indeed, it is a healthy part of human discourse. For only through openly examining ideas and beliefs can we as human beings discover what feels spiritually true to us. And when our heart finds something it feels to be true, the urge to share that truth with others is natural and part of the human condition.

But faith proffered at the end of a gun is not the same as spirited discourse between equals. American soldiers are in a position of power - lethal power - over the men, women and children in whose countries they are acting. When an armed man seeks to share his beliefs with you, it is not about spreading enlightenment, but about domination and control. To go into other countries with a rifle in one hand and a Bible in the other, can only create fear, resentment and backlash.

Even worse, the image of the soldier-preacher fits directly into Al-Qaeda's meme that Americans are engaged in a new Crusade to destroy Islam. And to the extent that these fundamentalist churches are allowed to exert influence in our military, our enemies are proven right. Both Muslim extremists and their Christian counterparts seek to ignite a war of civilizations, a zero-sum game in which their ideology will ultimately destroy their adversaries completely.

But I don't believe most Americans share that vision of Christianity, just like most Muslims don't seek to dominate and destroy other religions. And it is now up to people of good will, whatever their beliefs, to work together to prevent this clash of civilizations that the militants among us desire.

The irony of these American churches' efforts to spread Christianity in the Muslim world is that Christianity has been part of the fabric of these nations for centuries. As I discuss in my new novel, Mother of the Believers, the Muslim conquest of the Middle East was supported by Christian groups like the Egyptian Copts, who had been oppressed by the Byzantine Church for doctrinal differences. The Muslim leaders guaranteed religious freedom for "the People of the Book," and as a result they were able to attract the support of Middle Eastern Christians who were being terrorized by their fellow believers. Indeed, when the Crusaders took Jerusalem in 1099, they massacred its Christian population, who were seen as traitors for living in friendship with their Muslim neighbors.

In Iraq, an ancient Christian community has been in place for the past 2,000 years. And Iraqi Christians like former Deputy Prime Minister Tariq Aziz rose to positions of power in Saddam's secular regime. With the destruction of Iraq's secular dictatorship by American forces, Muslim extremists have filled the power vacuum, and now Iraq's Christian community is undergoing terrible persecution. About a third of Iraq's 800,000 Christians are believed to have fled overseas since 2003.

That's right - there were almost a million Christians already in Iraq under Saddam, part of a community that has lived in peace with its Muslim neighbors for over a thousand years. American Christians who supported the Iraq war as an End-Times battle to spread Christianity have ironically created an environment where Christianity is now disappearing from Iraq.

The lesson of these tragic events is that faith is best shared through dialogue built on respect for those who differ from us. It can never be imposed through power, and if it is, it is not faith at all, but mind control. And efforts to control the hearts and minds of others will always fail.

The Holy Qur'an says very clearly in Surah 2:256: "Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth stands out clear from error."

If what you believe is true, you don't need to use power or manipulation to convince others. So let us lay down our guns and embrace each other as brothers and sisters. The truth will win out in the end. It always does.

Kamran Pasha is a Hollywood filmmaker and the author of Mother of the Believers, a novel on the birth of Islam as told by Prophet Muhammad's wife Aisha (Atria Books; April 2009). For more information please visit: http://www.kamranpasha.com

Link: to Story that goes with video below: Soldiers Handing Out Swahili Bibles in Iraq

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/0B7pBbkZpq0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed>

[sgreger1]

Justin yor smarter than that. You know that the official mission statement and orders are no religion pushing or proslytizing. With hundreds of thousands of troop on the ground are some going to be doing their own shit and ignore orders? Yah. But to say we (our army) was sent there to convert people could not be further from the truth.

My statement was the we are in no official capacity pushing christianity on them. In my platoon I think there was only 2 christians. Most people are there for the college money, not for some clandestine "convert the muslims" mission.

[justintempler]

Justin yor smarter than that. You know that the official mission statement and orders are no religion pushing or proslytizing. With hundreds of thousands of troop on the ground are some going to be doing their own shit and ignore orders? Yah. But to say we (our army) was sent there to convert people could not be further from the truth.

My statement was the we are in no official capacity pushing christianity on them. In my platoon I think there was only 2 christians. Most people are there for the college money, not for some clandestine "convert the muslims" mission.

I never said anything about it being part of the official mission statement. From the Muslim standpoint if only a small percentage of soldiers are doing it, the enemy still considers "we" are doing it. Official or not. Right in the video you have a Colonel who is very aware of the official position and what does he do? He tells his followers how to technically get around Article 1 by giving them as "gifts".

[sgreger1]

Justin yor smarter than that. You know that the official mission statement and orders are no religion pushing or proslytizing. With hundreds of thousands of troop on the ground are some going to be doing their own shit and ignore orders? Yah. But to say we (our army) was sent there to convert people could not be further from the truth.

My statement was the we are in no official capacity pushing christianity on them. In my platoon I think there was only 2 christians. Most people are there for the college money, not for some clandestine "convert the muslims" mission.

I never said anything about it being part of the official mission statement. From the Muslim standpoint if only a small percentage of soldiers are doing it, the enemy still considers "we" are doing it. Official or not. Right in the video you have a Colonel who is very aware of the official position and what does he do? He tells his followers how to technically get around Article 1 by giving them as "gifts".

Lol, I swear you chase me down for the sole purpose of opposing anything I say nowadays but on this one I will give up. I know exactly what happens over there and no I don't agree with it. I am very anti pushing your culture on others, unless they have chosen to live in your country.

I dont think handing out bibles is a good idea, and it's actually extremely (I mean really extremely) bad manners and disrespectful to do that (unless solicited by someone) depending on which part of the country you are in. I was just saying that people want to claim we are there as part of some new crusades, which couldn't be further from the truth. It's about money, not religion. If some joe wants to do stupid shit they should get in trouble, but as many of you are probably aware, the rules tends to blur when your overseas and your gun is bigger.

[justintempler]

sgreger1,

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I agree with you that there is a small minority doing this.

At the same time I'm not going to pretend:
"we are not pushing christianity on them even a little tiny bit."

Haditha Dam, Al Anbar, Iraq - The 'New Testament' a tank with 4th Tank Co., 1st Tank battalion attached to 3/25 prepares to lead the way during a recent mission. Photo by: Cpl. Ken Melton

What I'm pointing out is what the enemy sees. The enemy thinks that if a small minority of our soldiers are doing it then it's just the tip of the iceberg. All they have to do is point to instances like this. play tapes of our (past) commander in chief George Bush talking about a new crusade, and tapes of military flyovers at "God and Country" rallies. Those make great tools for Al-Qaeda recruitment. Muslims don't trust us to begin with.

I fully support our military. I have nothing but respect for them.
Let's not make them more of a target than they already are.

[tom502]

Christians believe it's their mission to convert you, or you'll be damned in hell, and Muslims believe it's their mission to convert you, or behead you.

[sgreger1]

sgreger1,

I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I agree with you that there is a small minority doing this.

At the same time I'm not going to pretend:
"we are not pushing christianity on them even a little tiny bit."

Haditha Dam, Al Anbar, Iraq - The 'New Testament' a tank with 4th Tank Co., 1st Tank battalion attached to 3/25 prepares to lead the way during a recent mission. Photo by: Cpl. Ken Melton

What I'm pointing out is what the enemy sees. The enemy thinks that if a small minority of our soldiers are doing it then it's just the tip of the iceberg. All they have to do is point to instances like this. play tapes of our (past) commander in chief George Bush talking about a new crusade, and tapes of military flyovers at "God and Country" rallies. Those make great tools for Al-Qaeda recruitment. Muslims don't trust us to begin with.

I fully support our military. I have nothing but respect for them.
Let's not make them more of a target than they already are.

Yah I can't say your wrong even a little bit about this one. It only takes a few guys or a few times a picture gets out to ruin the overall mission. Their combatants are good at putting together clips of pics like the one above and turning it into a sermon about how this is the new crusades and we must take arms against the christians. Whoever is doing this is retarded. Not only because the rules strictly forbid it, or because it undermines our broader mission objectives, but it just makes christians look bad. I have no problem with religion but I HATE when people try to push it on you. I would imagine if you were already stirctly muslim than this would piss them off more than it pisses me off, because i'm impartial and to me it's just annoying. To them it is seen as a disrespect to their culture (which it is) so whoever is doing this shit needs to stop.


All I want to know is who the hell is the commander in charge of the unit from the picture above? If our sgt major ever saw something like this heads would be rolling in the sand. Entire chains of command would be relieved of their duty and re-stationed elsewhere. Someone really mesed up by allowing this.

[ShaulWolf]

Wait, how did my announcement that I got accepted into OCS turn into a political discussion? Let's move this to a new thread please.

[sgreger1]