The Haitians Are Coming!! The Haitians Are Coming!!

[sgreger1]

I have some theories on popluation control and [edit: not going to say it] that don't go over too well in mixed company...

Roo, you can't leave me on a cliffhanger like that. I think this group is pretty non-PC in a lot of ways. I would be enthralled to hear your theories on the subject, even if only by PM.

There is only 1 point I agree with the hardcore envronmentalists on, and that is that over-population is a real problem, and if we don't fix it, well... nature isn't very nice to species that over-populate.

[Roo]

Haha, I have not read the book but it sounds good. I already know what is says just by reading your decription. I am willing to bet that it is along the lines of: white people purposely suppressed others so they could get ahead.

I don't disagree that they did. And I don't think it's not wrong.
But survival of the fittest applies to all species, even Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

LOL no dude, it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with where agriculture and complex societies developed (the fertile crescent ie modern-day Iraq, Lebanon, Israel, Syria etc) and how cultural innovations (written language, mathematics, technology) and agricultural innovations spread easily across the East-West axis, ie all across Eurasia, but spread quite poorly across the North-South axes of the Americas and Africa. Has to do with climate. It's very difficult to survive the trek across the Sahara, let alone bring plants and animals, and the same goes for crossing through Central America and the Andes. But across the same or similar latitudes, people easily exchanged information and goods from the Mediterranean to all the way to China, which put civilizations along this East-West axis in a much better position to prosper.

Also talks a lot about the domestication of animals, and how people of Eurasia had it easy with horses and cows and shit. Can't tame a zebra, or a hippo, or a giraffe... you get the idea. That's why the forfathers of our language family that includes everything from Hindi to Farsi to French had an easy time conquering vast lands on horse-back and supplanting whatever native languages existed with their own "proto-indo-european" language. It's good shit.

And my theory is not all that confrontational, it's just that I'm sure people with AIDS don't want to hear it. I think the fact that AIDS is transmitted by the act that ultimately leads to overpopulation (and don't say gay sex damnit) is an indication that AIDS is a natural reaction to the problem. One life form (the virus) finds a weakness in another life form (people and our inclination to bang anything that walks), and there you have it, life feeds on life. Balance. And cancer could fall into that catagory, but I suspect that environmental factors play a much bigger role in the prevelance of cancer than overpopulation, but hey, whatever works.

[sgreger1]

Haha, I have not read the book but it sounds good. I already know what is says just by reading your decription. I am willing to bet that it is along the lines of: white people purposely suppressed others so they could get ahead.

I don't disagree that they did. And I don't think it's not wrong.
But survival of the fittest applies to all species, even Homo Sapiens Sapiens.

LOL no dude, it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with where agriculture and complex societies developed (the fertile crescent ie modern-day Iraq, Lebanon, Israel, Syria etc) and how cultural innovations (written language, mathematics, technology) and agricultural innovations spread easily across the East-West axis, ie all across Eurasia, but spread quite poorly across the North-South axes of the Americas and Africa. Has to do with climate. It's very difficult to survive the trek across the Sahara, let alone bring plants and animals, and the same goes for crossing through Central America and the Andes. But across the same or similar latitudes, people easily exchanged information and goods from the Mediterranean to all the way to China, which put civilizations along this East-West axis in a much better position to prosper.

Also talks a lot about the domestication of animals, and how people of Eurasia had it easy with horses and cows and shit. Can't tame a zebra, or a hippo, or a giraffe... you get the idea. That's why the forfathers of our language family that includes everything from Hindi to Farsi to French had an easy time conquering vast lands on horse-back and supplanting whatever native languages existed with their own "proto-indo-european" language. It's good shit.

And my theory is not all that confrontational, it's just that I'm sure people with AIDS don't want to hear it. I think the fact that AIDS is transmitted by the act that ultimately leads to overpopulation (and don't say gay sex damnit) is an indication that AIDS is a natural reaction to the problem. One life form (the virus) finds a weakness in another life form (people and our inclination to bang anything that walks), and there you have it, life feeds on life. Balance. And cancer could fall into that catagory, but I suspect that environmental factors play a much bigger role in the prevelance of cancer than overpopulation, but hey, whatever works.

Wow it's amazing that you would mention a book like this right now, as literally minutes ago I was discussing this very same issue with my father, as I have been trying to read up on it in my constant quest to understand how humans came from our ape-like Australopithecus aferensis ancestors, to nomadic hunter gatherers and then into the anomaly that is modern day humans, with technology, consciouseness, self awareness etc.
We were discussing how agriculture and the abundance of food led to trade, cooperation, permanent settlements, the first proto-states, and the rise of expansive empires. It's one of my favorite subjects. I will definately have to read your book as before I had jsut been scavenging for free content on-line since I didn't know of any good books on the trade subject.




As for your theory on AID's: Butt sex

lol, j/k

I don't see how your theory could be taken the wrong way since what you are describing is exactly what is happening. For whatever purpose, earth maintains a balance at all times, and there is no force of any magnitude that the earth has been unable to counteract. Be it extreme cold or periods of volcanic warming, to meteors to overpopulation, it's resolve does not falter.

Humans are an intiresting challenge because we have our own consciouseness and therefore don't adapt to the earth's natural changes the way other animals/plants do. When it gets too cold, we put on a jacket, when there is a food shortage, we ship it in from somewhere else, when a mountain is in the way, we tear it down etc etc.

We are also at the top of the food chain, and we can eat just about anything from roots, to fruits, all the way up to f***ing lions if we wanted to, we have no predators to keep our population in check. We can adapt to any environmental changes the earth throws at us too, we've survived an ice age before, and that was before technology.

Therefore, for earth to keep it's balance, it must invent new things to act as a controll: Viruses. STD's are not as common in animals, mainly because animals breeding patterns are different and we are one of the few species that has sex for pleasure as opposed to solely using it to reproduce. An STD such as aid's is perfect in that it will kill off the weakest first, and then move up the chain, and we aren't going to stop having sex any time soon.

So you are correct, AIDs is nature's population control, since there really is nothing else that can stop us at this time, yet our population grows exponentially, especially in food scarce and poorer regions. This is why AIDS seems to affect the poor community, African community etc, because perhaps nature sees them as the weakest and easiest to target. Their immune systems are not as well protected. They also don't have easy access to birth control or advanced medical treatment.

(Then again, the first AID's resistant people are being born in Africa, so you havn't got us yet nature!)






This is why Global Warming cap-and-trade ideas do not catch my attention. If there is a problem, the earth will correct it, and frankly our spewing C02 into the atmosphere is the least of earth's challenges; it has weathered way worse in the past. Either way, at some point the balance must be restored, and I don't think we will have the luxury of legislating ourselves into Earth's favor.

[truthwolf1]

Roo.
I was born here but all my family including my wife is from eastern europe.
We visit often and I have to say that I have seen my share of dumb and very poor white relatives over there. There is actually a population reduction in the country so the government pays young girls up to 2000 dollars to have a kid. Needless to say we have a few in our family who have done this with a couple or more kids. When you use kids to advance yourself into more poverty that gets no sympathy from me as a father. I call that child abuse from dumb f$%^$g people. We also have plenty of that here in the USA and you and I pay for it.
I can understand where your are coming from that it is not the poor people's fault because of outside intervention but you cannot put all the blame for human cruelty on that alone. What about the population in Africa that kills Albino's for magical powers or rapes virgins to get rid of aids or in Thailand where they prostitute children as young 3 or 4 openely in some cities. It is 2010 and the world still does not want to change in some ways. No matter how much you try to advance people.
Things in Haiti were a fricken mess there before this happened but I really did not have any idea until I researched it today. It just makes me less sympathetic to these people. What the hell were they thinking? and what the hell are we expected to do about it? Build them up so they can just sink it? I dont know? It's seems like a lost cause.

[sgreger1]

TWolf,

This goes back to the age of saying of "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime".


Handing out mackerel is not the right answer here.

[Roo]

Right on, yeah the book is called Guns Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. Came out maybe in 98. There's a ton of real boring shit in the middle about agriculture, not all of it boring, but it can get a little slow at times. It's an impressive attempt to answer some challenging questions. I have to refute your point here though:

So you are correct, AIDs is nature's population control, since there really is nothing else that can stop us at this time, yet our population grows exponentially, especially in food scarce and poorer regions. This is why AIDS seems to affect the poor community, African community etc, because perhaps nature sees them as the weakest and easiest to target. Their immune systems are not as well protected. They also don't have easy access to birth control or advanced medical treatment.

The average African's immune system would woop ass all over ours. Africans in general don't have hay fever and other allergies lol, our immune systems are weakened by our excessively clean and sterile lifestyles. The problem is lack of knowledge, education, and resources. There are still people who think AIDS can be cured by raping virgins... I think that's the problem in rural Africa -- lacking the basic understanding of the disease. As for poor populations, a good 25% or more of HIV is spread through IV drug use, so it's addicts on the street who care too much about slamming that dope to worry about disease, or prostitutes who can't/don't find work that removes the risk of STDs. In India the disease is spreading like crazy by truckers. Hookers get it, then go to truck stops to work, then truckers take it all over the country. In China it's mostly hookers and IV drug users. In Africa, I think like you said, lack of adequate condom supplies and understanding of the disease. Anyway, I'm no expert, I just don't think nature "targets" Africans, I think the lack of understanding puts them at the most risk.

[Roo]

Truthwolf: I agree man, I have as many problems with overpopulation in general and within single families as you. I just think we need to set the reality aside and not blame them for getting into this mess -- their predicament is not unusual, they have 50 other countries in front of them with higher fertility rates. To wright them off as dumb and somehow accountable for the devistation did not sit well.

[truthwolf1]

TWolf,

This goes back to the age of saying of "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime".


Handing out mackerel is not the right answer here.

Exactly. This is why handouts dont work in the long run.
In this situation I can understand the emergency aid and setting up shelters but what are these people going to do after that?

[sgreger1]

Right on, yeah the book is called Guns Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond. Came out maybe in 98. There's a ton of real boring shit in the middle about agriculture, not all of it boring, but it can get a little slow at times. It's an impressive attempt to answer some challenging questions. I have to refute your point here though:

So you are correct, AIDs is nature's population control, since there really is nothing else that can stop us at this time, yet our population grows exponentially, especially in food scarce and poorer regions. This is why AIDS seems to affect the poor community, African community etc, because perhaps nature sees them as the weakest and easiest to target. Their immune systems are not as well protected. They also don't have easy access to birth control or advanced medical treatment.

The average African's immune system would woop ass all over ours. Africans in general don't have hay fever and other allergies lol, our immune systems are weakened by our excessively clean and sterile lifestyles. The problem is lack of knowledge, education, and resources. There are still people who think AIDS can be cured by raping virgins... I think that's the problem in rural Africa -- lacking the basic understanding of the disease. As for poor populations, a good 25% or more of HIV is spread through IV drug use, so it's addicts on the street who care too much about slamming that dope to worry about disease, or prostitutes who can't/don't find work that removes the risk of STDs. In India the disease is spreading like crazy by truckers. Hookers get it, then go to truck stops to work, then truckers take it all over the country. In China it's mostly hookers and IV drug users. In Africa, I think like you said, lack of adequate condom supplies and understanding of the disease. Anyway, I'm no expert, I just don't think nature "targets" Africans, I think the lack of understanding puts them at the most risk.

I don't mean that nature is racist or anything lol, I am saying that it appears these communities are affected the greatest because they are the most Susceptible. Susceptible meaning they for one reason or another are not going to prevent getting it or once having contracted it live for that long. Viruses also target hosts that will spread thigns easly. When you are sick with the flu you will sneeze, spreading the virus. So if you were the aid's virus, prostitutes, drug users, and impoverished countries would be your bread and butter.





As for the numbers, I think my point stands:

AIDS Infection:




0.6% | Brazil,Colombia,Paraguay,Switzerland,United States,Uruguay
0.4% | Canada,Costa Rica,France,Italy,Moldova
0.2% | Australia,Austria,Azerbaijan,Bahrain,Belarus,Belgium,
Bolivia,Denmark,Greece,Iceland,Indonesia,Iran,Ireland,L aos,Luxembourg,Netherlands,Nicaragua,Singapore,United Kingdom


As opposed to

11.9% | Malawi
12.5% | Mozambique
15.2% | Zambia
15.3% | Namibia,Zimbabwe
18.1% | South Africa
23.2% | Lesotho
23.9% | Botswana



Their immune systems may be stronger for some things, but not for others. I agree that our germaphobic cleanroom lifestyle will lead to the fall of the human race though. That's why I utilize the 5 second rule, it's good for you to eat something off the floor sometimes.

[truthwolf1]

Truthwolf: I agree man, I have as many problems with overpopulation in general and within single families as you. I just think we need to set the reality aside and not blame them for getting into this mess -- their predicament is not unusual, they have 50 other countries in front of them with higher fertility rates. To wright them off as dumb and somehow accountable for the devistation did not sit well.

Sorry for using that term but I just feel this whole situation is going to get a whole lot worse as the days go on. I would like to have more sympathy but in case I dont maybe I will donate something so I can bitch all I want from now on. Kinda like voting.

[Roo]

Nature is totally racist lol. And yeah I eat shit off the floor all the time. It's definitely good for you.

[N0mad]

Taking thousands of people and transplanting them elsewhere is not the solution.

150,000 Latest estimate of the death toll, from the Haitian Health Ministry. The European Union and the Pan American Health Organization, which is coordinating the health-sector response, have estimated the quake killed 200,000 people and another 194,000 are injured.

Every viable country in the world should participate in the reconstruction of Haiti not just the United States.

The French plundered their land and resources and profited from their misery if Haiti is to rebound it needs her people in place.