Obamacare

[redheadedmax]

Alright. How much money does it take to do this? It must not be much if you claim the bar ISN'T exceedingly high. And if it is so easy and such a simple solution, why wasn't something like this instituted in the years from 2000-2008?

I don't know, nor do I care just don't trample on my right to refuse to participate.
Maybe, since you're the one demanding solutions you should look into it. :lol:
Why the obsession with 2000-2008? Oh, you must think that because I dislike this plan that I'm a Republican, no?

That's certainly your right, but it doesn't mean the rest of us would care to see health care rationing continue by pre-existing condition or policy recission. It doesn't mean the rest of us would care to see health care costs continue to raise deficit levels.

Then go find a solution that doesn't violate my right to not participate.

How DARE the government tell business they can not market their products and services to Americans by telephone. Government needs to quit interfering in our lives! What is NOT mentioned is the fact the solution of the Do Not Call List was a direct response to Americans getting sick of being called at home as they sit down to dinner or called on their cell phones and having their minutes wasted.

You're getting off track. I'm not forced to participate in any of that.

The same is true in the case of health insurance. There are MANY who do not believe insurance companies should have the right to deny a baby health insurance for arbitrary reasons like being 'overweight' at 4 months of age, or rescinding insurance policies when one actually gets sick and needs it the most. If the insurance company can rescind a policy simply because one becomes sick and needs care the most, there's really no point in the company existing at all.

Again, then find a way to fix those problems without having to force me to enter into a contract with a for-profit enterprise. It's that simple.

Which doesn't solve the problem at the national level and does nothing to fund the black hole left in the federal budget due to increasing health care costs, which means your 'solution' is not a solution at all.

I really don't care if the problem is "solved on a national level" or not. I have my priorities and you have yours. AGAIN- find a way to fix the problem without involving those of us who don't want to participate.

You don't have the right to make that choice, no more than a war protester has the right to demand their tax dollars be left out of paying war expenses.

Sorry, but money for war is appropriated by congress as outlined in the constitution- a mandated payment to a private for profit enterprise for services is very different.

We are ALL in this together.

No we're not. I could actually care less if some overweight, drug addled moron who spends his life abusing his body receives proper health care or not. Sorry, just being honest.

There is no need to criminalize anyone, when simply raising the fine such that it is cheaper to buy in than pay the fine will easily solve the problem of not enough people buying in.

Why should there even be a fine? Shouldn't we all have the freedom to decide if we want to enter into a legally binding contract with a private entity?
Is that really asking to much? Seriously.

You have obviously taken one too many swigs of the Repubican kool-aid, if the only answer you have is 'the end is near, because really scary things MIGHT happen in the future.'

Uh, nope. Again- do you assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a registered Republican?
It seems there's one of us drinking the kool-aid and it isn't me.

I get it. Everything is terrible and only horrible things will happen in the future, based on your personal speculation.

I get it. With you everything will be just fine as long as we all go along with what the morons 2,000 miles away say we must do, unless the party you're a member of tells you not to. Funny how about a year ago the insurance industry was evil and so on, but now we all need to partner up with them.

The reality is that government never delivers what it promises.
NAFTA was going to be so great for everyone....
They'll welcome us as liberators...
With the stimulus package unemployment will never get above 8 percent...
And on and on and on.....

But somehow it'll all be different because you're emotionally invested in a politician.

[redheadedmax]

From what I understand this new bill is not very friendly to FSA and HSA's.

I have an HSA and it works great. Most hospitals are more than willing to work with you too as there's no insurance middle man to deal with. I went to the ER a few years ago for a kidney stone and was told when admitted if I paid an immediate deposit of $350 they'd cut my bill in half. I got the itemized bill a few months later which clearly showed the discount.

Soon they won't be worth having, tho.

[sgreger1]

For those wondering about how subsidies will work for employer provided coverage:

The federal subsidy would go straight to the insurer. It would look like a discount on the policy to the customer.

Anyone else who qualifies?But what if you work for an employer who does offer health insurance? You’re not shopping for policies on the individual market. At least, not yet. Can you still get a subsidy?

Excellent questions. Glad you asked.

Yes, if you make less money than the poverty cutoff level, you would still be eligible for aid. The federal government will in essence guarantee that you do not have to pay more than 9.8 percent of your income for your share of health insurance costs.

There’s something of a catch there, however. The main way the feds would ensure this is to steer you, too, into this new exchange. Your employer would give you a voucher equal to the amount of money it contributes to your policy. Then you’d dive in there and shop for plans with all the self-employed people.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100320/ts_csm/288867


I make the income bracket that is eligible for subsidy but I pay less than 9.8% of my income to health insurance so I wouldn't get any free money. :cry:

[MrSnusNSnuff]

Everyone buy guns and overturn this government.
:lol:

It's about 100+ years overdue anyway. Didn't Thomas Jefferson quote, "the tree of liberty is watered by blood?", and to paraphrase, America needs a violent revolution every 20 years to keep the government from gaining too much power?

Well, people will bitch and moan, but will continue to be duped by politicians running for office who do the same exact thing over and over again. And they will continue to be apathetic.

Excuse me while I grab another portion and play some more World of Warcraft

[sgreger1]

"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."



1787 Nov. 13. (to W. S. Smith, B.12.356)

[snupy]

I don't know, nor do I care just don't trample on my right to refuse to participate.

No citizen of this country has the 'right' to break the law, although you are most free to do so, provided you are prepared to deal with the consequences.

Maybe, since you're the one demanding solutions you should look into it. :lol:

It's not a solution.

Why the obsession with 2000-2008? Oh, you must think that because I dislike this plan that I'm a Republican, no?

For those who are so displeased with the legislation, surely they have some ideas floated previously that they liked, and barring that, surely they have some other solutions to the problem that would be better.

Then go find a solution that doesn't violate my right to not participate.

No citizen of this country has a 'right' to break the law.

You're getting off track. I'm not forced to participate in any of that.

You aren't forced to buy insurance. You can opt to pay the fine instead. I am debating myself if I would rather pay the fine.

Again, then find a way to fix those problems without having to force me to enter into a contract with a for-profit enterprise. It's that simple.

Pay the fine. It's that simple.

I really don't care if the problem is "solved on a national level" or not.

Who cares? You think we should leave the issue undone because YOU don't care? The baby boomers are aging, which WILL require more health care dollars to treat them. You may not give a damn about the needs of other Americans, but some of us still do. And closing your eyes, while sticking your fingers in your ears, while exlaiming 'I don't care,' does NOTHING to solve the problem or make it go away.

I can't just say, "I could give a shit less whether you have police protection or not, just find some other way to pay for it that doesn't require my participation in it? OK" (Well I could say it but no one will take me seriously if I do, nor will they ignore the NEED for police protection simply because I don't care.)

AGAIN- find a way to fix the problem without involving those of us who don't want to participate.

AGAIN. Pay the fine. Problem solved. There is no need to find some other way, since the way is already law.

a mandated payment to a private for profit enterprise for services is very different.

Based on what court precedent?

No we're not. I could actually care less if some overweight, drug addled moron who spends his life abusing his body receives proper health care or not. Sorry, just being honest.

Doesn't matter what you personally care about or not. Just being honest. You think we will defund the military simply because YOU don't care about it?

Why should there even be a fine? Shouldn't we all have the freedom to decide if we want to enter into a legally binding contract with a private entity?

Universal coverage is only possible with universal participation, or near universal. There's no other way, that I know of, to eliminate rationing by pre-existing condition or policy recission WITHOUT universal coverage.

Is that really asking to much? Seriously.

Shouldn't we all have the right to buy a car WITHOUT a catalytic converter? Seriously.

Uh, nope. Again- do you assume that everyone who disagrees with you is a registered Republican?

You've stolen everyone of the Republican arguments. If it looks like a duck.

It seems there's one of us drinking the kool-aid and it isn't me.

I am DRUNK on the kool-aid that health insurance companies can no longer DENY AMERICANS coverage for pre-existing conditions. I am DRUNK on the kool-aid that we AMERICANS can no longer have our health insurance policies rescinded. Those were the TWO BIGGIES I wanted to see in health care reform.

I get it. With you everything will be just fine as long as we all go along with what the morons 2,000 miles away say we must do, unless the party you're a member of tells you not to.

Who said everything was fine or will be so? I have CLEARLY stated at least once in this thread, I do not expect this law to be the same next year, nor the year after, etc. I would be MORE surprised if adjustments WEREN'T necessary in the future than if they were. Are there any things we humans get right the first time we attempt it?

Funny how about a year ago the insurance industry was evil and so on, but now we all need to partner up with them.

They're not evil. They have, up to this point, done EXACTLY what corporations are expected to do, which is return a profit to the shareholder. The problem is the conflict of interest in denying claims=greater profits, WHEN IT APPLIED TO PEOPLE'S LIVES, but that's not the fault of the industry itself.

The reality is that government never delivers what it promises.

REALLY? Funny I don't receive any telemarketing calls on the landline anymore. Nor do I receive them on my cell phone. Funny how a collection agency was STOPPED IN IT'S TRACKS, once I got the FTC up their behind for breaking the law and forwarded the proof of my claims. Funny how my car insurance is DIRT CHEAP and I don't have to worry about uninsured motorists' inability to pay in the event of a car accident, and have lived this way for years and years and years. Funny how I got a REALLY NICE LETTER today from the IRS, telling me they caught an error on my 2008 tax return and I am due a small refund.

Yet, to hear you tell it, government fvked up the Do Not Call List, fvcked up the FTC, fcvked up the Fair Credit Reporting Act, fvcked up mandatory car insurance, fvckd up the IRS, etc and so on and so on, since 'government never delivers what is promises, or so you claim.

With the stimulus package unemployment will never get above 8 percent...

Any politician who claimed that was a DAMN FOOL to make the claim and YES, that means OBAMA. It is not an example of a government fcking things up, however.

But somehow it'll all be different because you're emotionally invested in a politician.

I was emotionally invested in ALOT of what Bush did, particularly early on, although not so much in the later years.. What I am really invested in right now are two things:

1. Elimination of health care rationing by pre-existing condition

2. Elimination of health care rationing by policy recission

And if the Republicans had gotten it through, I would have been just as pleased with them. (But then, I have already cited the FACT many of the ideas in the legislation came from Republicans, even going back to the early 90s).

[redheadedmax]

I don't know, nor do I care just don't trample on my right to refuse to participate.

No citizen of this country has the 'right' to break the law, although you are most free to do so, provided you are prepared to deal with the consequences.

And there we have it right there... the real you finally poked it's little head out didn't it? You little fascist you! :lol:

See you feel it's okay to legislate what you feel needs to be done even if it may violate our constitutional rights.

Where does it end?

As I stated in the first post you replied to if they can make you enter into a legally binding contract with a private for profit enterprise they can make you do ANYTHING.

I don't want to hear you cry when the political winds change and you're required to drop social security and invest with HSBC or some other shit like that.

[snupy]

And there we have it right there... the real you finally poked it's little head out didn't it? You little fascist you! :lol:

Look, it's really very simple. Here's your chocies:

1. Buy insurance
2. Don't buy insurance & pay the fine
3. Don't buy insurance, don't pay the fine and face the legal consequences.

What is so 'fascist' about typing out the options?

See you feel it's okay to legislate what you feel needs to be done even if it may violate our constitutional rights.

1. You've yet to offer so much as the tiniest sliver of proof the legislation is unconstitutional.

2. At no point have I suggested this legislation represents what I feel needs to be done. What I am saying is, NOW THAT IT IS LAW, HERE ARE YOUR OPTIONS:

1. Buy insurance
2. Don't buy insurance & pay the fine
3. Don't buy insurance, don't pay the fine and face the legal consequences.

As I stated in the first post you replied to if they can make you enter into a legally binding contract with a private for profit enterprise

You are perfectly free to pay the fine instead.

they can make you do ANYTHING.

Proof?

I don't want to hear you cry when the political winds change and you're required to drop social security and invest with HSBC or some other shit like that.

Your belief the future of this legislation can only mean 'BOO! SCARY!' has already been noted.

[redheadedmax]

What is so 'fascist' about typing out the options?

Dude, get real. You're not simply "typing out the options".

You're supporting legislation that will make me surrender my right to make my own choices in life because you think it will be better for me. Only I assume you think I'm just too duuurned dumb to know what's good for me.

And people wonder why America is screwed.

[snupy]

You're supporting legislation that will make me surrender my right to make my own choices in life because you think it will be better for me.

I have REPEATEDLY told you to pay the fine if you don't want to buy the insurance. I have REPEATEDLY stated I may well pay the fine instead of purchase insurance myself.

Only I assume you think I'm just too duuurned dumb to know what's good for me.

You said you didn't want to buy insurance. Did I try to argue you into buying insurance, as if you were too stupid to make that decision for yourself? No, I did not. I said, if you don't want to buy in, then pay the fine. What's the damn problem? You've got three choices under the law, as do I. What's wrong with looking at the choices and taking your pick?

And people wonder why America is screwed.

How are you dealing with PACT? What are your plans once it becomes law? Whatever those plans are, do you wait until the law comes into effect, or do you plan AHEAD as to how you will deal with the results of that law? GUESS WHAT? THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.

You can CLAIM all day long this law is unconstitutional, but it don't mean sh&t without some PROOF to prove it so. And without that PROOF, we BOTH have to decide what choices we will make under the new law. But I will be DAMNED if I will tell you what choice to make, and that's exactly why you can't provide a direct quote or post number from me to EVER demonstrate that I have tried to force your decision on this issue.

[redheadedmax]

I have REPEATEDLY told you to pay the fine if you don't want to buy the insurance. I have REPEATEDLY stated I may well pay the fine instead of purchase insurance myself.

Pay the fine because it's "the law" right?

Remember that, son.

[snupy]

Pay the fine because it's "the law" right?

Remember that, son.

OHHH! SCARY! THAT SOUNDS JUST LIKE A SPEEDING TICKET!

SURELY THE END IS NIGH AND CATS WILL LIE WITH DOGS!

[redheadedmax]

Pay the fine because it's "the law" right?

Remember that, son.

OHHH! SCARY! THAT SOUNDS JUST LIKE A SPEEDING TICKET!

SURELY THE END IS NIGH AND CATS WILL LIE WITH DOGS!

Yeah, America is fvcked.

[snupy]

Yeah, America is fvcked.

Well tell us Reverend Cleo, what tarot deck do you use to read the future? Or do you have a familiar spirit who tells what is to be? Is there a 900 number we can call so you can read our future too?

Seriously, I dont' get it. What is the deal with all of this paranoia about the future? Where does all of this 'America is going to hell' attitude coming from? Why are people so SCARED? I get the fact fears would inevitably be heightened given the present econonomic chaos, but DAMN! Am I the only one left who actually does still have hope for my country AND my fellow Americans?

[redheadedmax]

Yeah, America is fvcked.

Well tell us Reverend Cleo, what tarot deck do you use to read the future? Is there a 900 number we can call so you can read our future too?

Your future?

Aimlessly posting on message boards accusing everyone of being a Republican.. and ass cancer. Lots of ass cancer but you deserve it. :lol: