supporting the troops

[RealmofOpeth]

Anyone else in America, or any other 'coalition' nation, getting sick of this message about supporting the troops?

Since when was being in the military inherently an honorable thing?
It's not inherently a bad thing either...but it's just the military. Many scumbags are in it as much as the well-meaning ones. That's just common sense as there is no moral fiber/patriotic test to be taken, the standards for joining are set lower and lower, and I experienced a lot of undesireables anyway when I was in the USAF and that I was also next to an Army base.
What I really don't understand is people who support the troops but are against the war. They'll say thank you for your service soldier, for keeping us free. All the while forgetting that their current mission has nothing to do with freedom and that we've had nothing but loss of freedom when all this garbage started since 9/11.

I feel like pointing that out in public will likely get me tarred and feathered in one form or another. Probably here, too, (I can't imagine how much of a flamefest I'd create if I posted this on SMpost, lol) but I'm just tired of this zeitgeist of worshipping the military and it rarely being deconstructed for what it means.
It's like saying thank you to a bunch of construction workers for building a great house when they're working on a dam.
The psychosis over this runs so deep that even people like me who aren't sold on the bullshit still regularly play military video games. I think I hit a tipping point though when I was playing call of duty 4, and that one of the quotes they use (after you die, they show a usually poignant and meaningful quote about war from some highly respected person)...included a lifeless quote from all-time liar Condi Rice. I saw immediately what demographic that game was geared towards. Those who exalt the military and authority in general. In their previous games it wasn't so bad since it was WW2, anybody could play it without much political thinking going on...in their latest installment however, it entirely excuses the current quagmire situation and tries to take on that idea of preventing nuclear war coming from terrorists..the constant fear mongering over which is happening today of course. Obviously it's not a far-fetched concept, but it sort of ingrains that idea that whatever the military is set to do by government leadership is always in everybody's best interests, and the stories of which are bigtime poignant adventures.

It would be nice to see a game take on the concept that it's not just other governments who do bad shit but ours as well and that there is corrupt factions having carte blanche to do what they want. Some more realistic reflection of what's really going on rather than this idea that the government is our homogenous entity of freedom-loving do-gooders.

I come from a military family and have long enjoyed going to the jingoistic air-shows, and worshipping military technology through toys when I was younger and video games and movies and what-not later on. So I can understand how the mentality can be rooted so deep as to question it might immediately cast you as some type of enemy-sympathizer. Perhaps the fact I've explored a lot of that mentality already, it's easier for me to see where it's not as cracked up as it's made to be? Maybe not so much for those who haven't thought much about it, and any thought of military to them as they are older is an instant sort of turn-on? It seems like the unquestioned hip thing to do regardless and to keep your mouth shut otherwise.
Kind of hard to explain...I also used to hate gays too, enjoyed violence, and I was a theist...all things I've done 180 on. Not that I love gays or completely can't stand the thought of violence and stuff but I've definitely changed mental states on those subjects and others so maybe I'm one of those who has an uncommon flexible mentality to change beliefs.
Now I don't hate the troops so I don't go the opposite direction of supporting them...I just don't feel this need to love them for something they're not doing.
It's an adult decision to join the military and be the government's slave. But the people who oppose the war and still strongly support them are treating them like children...kids who are ignorant crossing the road without looking. What the hell is the point of supporting that? I support bringing the troops home. That's supporting the troops. Supporting the troops is convincing them not to join in the first place or to get out ASAP. That in itself might be seen as not supporting the military...there's sort of a blurry line between supporting the well-being of the people in the military and the mission of the military itself.
I would have stayed in the military if we were actually doing anything towards protecting our freedom and the constitution, all enemies foreign and domestic. But all I've seen while I was in (august 2001 to July 2007) was a total bastardization of what the military should be for. We're worried about borders in Iraq and leave ours wide open. It seems to be nothing more than a free-for-all from executive branch politicians and defense contractors. The job I had is to be handed toRraytheon. It's to the point where the 'government' employees of the military are becoming more civilian. PMC's taking over the scene and very little oversight as we see in the case of Blackwater and Aegis and other companies.
Anymore I see the mission of the military as a crowbar for profit-maximization. The side effect of extreme capitalism has formed the military-industrial complex and that complex has assimilated the media and the minds of many who watch it.
What do you guys think? Am I on to anything here or am I just an ungrateful 'liberal' or terrorist sympathizing pinko commie?

[Stargazer]

I feel sorry for the troops.
I just hope they all can get home in one piece and alive.
they have all been brain washed with the culture that you are speaking of.
"The Glory of combat" and all that shit.
The truth is that war is hell, to put in a very cliché but true way.

their mission of course I can't support or condone.

I will be entering military service my self the January 9th.
Not by choice, but because I must, as a service to my country.
serving out broad requires signing of a contract that I will keep
myself far from. I just want to be done with my year and get back to
my normal life.

[darkwing]

I think I agree with most of what Realmofopeth says. Mostly, I find the support the troops blather and the decals on pickup trucks etc. around here a big bore and rather simple minded.

[PseudoSwede]

Although I don't agree with everything your manifesto details, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

However, I think you need to spend time in some third world countries similar to those in Eastern Europe. Then I think you'll get a whole new appreciation for what the military does for OUR country. It gives you and every other person in this country the freedom to stand up and spit in its face without retribution. Try doing that in Iraq, China, or Russia. I guarantee you'll find yourself swinging from a tree wearing a hemp necktie.

So, again, everyone is entitled to their opinion and to speak their mind under the protection of our Constitution which our troops defend.

And, of course, every one is entitled to agree or disagree. That's what's great about America and the troops that protect her.

[RealmofOpeth]

Although I don't agree with everything your manifesto details, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

However, I think you need to spend time in some third world countries similar to those in Eastern Europe. Then I think you'll get a whole new appreciation for what the military does for OUR country. It gives you and every other person in this country the freedom to stand up and spit in its face without retribution. Try doing that in Iraq, China, or Russia. I guarantee you'll find yourself swinging from a tree wearing a hemp necktie.

So, again, everyone is entitled to their opinion and to speak their mind under the protection of our Constitution which our troops defend.

And, of course, every one is entitled to agree or disagree. That's what's great about America and the troops that protect her.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. This mentality that there's 3rd world countries and then there's us who live in relative luxury compared to them....and then the 'freedom isn't free' slogans and military appreciation (or more like blind worship) ensues.
What does the military have anything to do with that in reality though?
What does the war in Iraq have anything to do with how well we live compared to 3rd world countries?
What does the war in Iraq (or any war that is largely bullshit, i.e. vietnam, etc) have anything to do with protecting the constitution?
We've seen a total assraping of the constitution in recent years.
You can be labelled an enemy combatant and have no right to a lawyer or anything whatsoever until they feel like letting you go, likely after they tortured your ass...no habeas corpus, free-speech 'zones', wiretapping anybody without a warrant, etc.
Sounds quite similar to the distinct traits of a fascist or communist government we're always proud to bash.

I don't see any protection of the constitution going on. If there's anything about America that makes it free, it is it's initial framework (although now co-opted) of a constitutional republic government and somewhat free-market economy along with the civil rights groups...and obviously the military of the revolutionary war and world wars. A strong military with cutting edge weaponry and tactics and such is required of course, but only on the defense. It seems the only justification for ridiculous military spending and operations is that at least we get a lot of practice..

What's funny is that I see a lot of gung-ho pompous vets getting on their military-high-horse whenever somebody criticizes the government...saying 'i fight for your right to be an ungrateful scumbag' or something to that effect. Obviously if a person is getting bitched at for pointing out government transgressions, their right to speak isn't being fought for.

I can understand maybe if Iraq invaded our ass or that our government has been empirically proven to have never done any wrong, but otherwise that's just a standpoint of total ignorance and arrogance for these guys to do so. Whatever makes them feel big and a part of some patriotic thing. The same with a lot of people in any country. There always has to be a foreign problem, so the government can claim a deified status, and public support for their leaderships gives people a sense of 'patriotism', so people to think they are living in the land of oz. American society has been brainwashed to think that just because we live free-er than a lot of shitholes out there, that somehow whatever the mission the military does is directly related to that. I don't see the connection. I don't see anybody trying to provide the connection either, it's just assumed.
It's called fair-weather patriotism and has no real bearing on real patriotism. Often real patriotism can be seen as completely counter to fair-weather patriotism.
I think a good quote that sums this up is from Mark Twain:
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
Fair-weather patriot: wave flags, have yellow ribbon bumber stickers, talk about how much you support the troops, be afraid every time the government says something bad is going to happen, accept all of their explanations for things, etc.
Real patriot: know what the founding fathers envisioned, work to protect what has established this country as great (the constitution), and realize the easiest fall of your country is going to come from within and be ever vigilant against that.

[The Cook]

I'm not sure if I follow all the American political talk in Realm's posts, though I agree with much of what he says.

I support our troops in Afghanistan (you might remember that Canada declined Bush's invitation to the Iraq war) I figure that this is the only chance were going to have to smash the Taliban. The Taliban keep girls out of school, keep women as suppressed as is possible, promote religious hatred and apply Sharia law. Human rights as you and I know them do not exist under a Taliban regime.

[Zero]

I agree with Opeth and I absolutely don't support Canada's troops being in Afghanistan - we should have never gone. Canada has this warped view of itself as peace loving because we send our soldiers on "peacekeeping" missions when, in reality, we're really just playing the "good cop" side of the hegemonic bandwagon. How are we any different from Hans Frank, who "kept the peace" in Poland after the Nazis took over? They put him to death in Nuremburg too...

The way I see it, it generally works like this :

1) America, Germany, France, Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, and a few others, in turn and in various combinations, stir up partisan conflicts around the world by seizing upon existing splits in foreign societies (which invariably exist in ANY country) and feeding them with military/guerilla training, funding, weapons, etc. Both sides are generally financed to maximise profits in the interim, one supported publicly, another covertly.

2) Chaos leads to "legitimate" intervention on the part of the UN/NATO/etc - in the case of Iraq, the US did it alone, but that's unusual. The guy they don't like is kicked out - generally a nationalist who supports the development of the given country's resources for its own benefit, opposing massive investment of foreign corporations (which leads to a population of wage slaves and export of profits to central controllers).

3) New puppet is put in place to govern. If needed, people like Canadians are sent in to win hearts and minds and to police any remaining dissenters (you know, people who realise they've just been had and that their future has been seized by rich, corrupt bastards). If the new puppet works out, the US maintains a permanent military presence in the country and the population enters the "western world trance". If the new puppets gets a bit up himself, then the conflict restarts again until they get someone who sticks.

Rinse, repeat.

How can Canadians feel proud doing a job like that? All we've done in Afghanistan is secured land for Karzai's pipeline and made sure that Wall Street continues to feed on the mass liquidity provided by the heroin trade (conveniently managed by the CIA and its gang of criminal allies...).

Bollocks to that, I say.

[Zero]

The Taliban keep girls out of school, keep women as suppressed as is possible, promote religious hatred and apply Sharia law. Human rights as you and I know them do not exist under a Taliban regime.

Well, I might argue that that's a bit of an extreme picture - the truth is somewhere in between, always. Nevertheless, what makes that a reason to start a war? To kill thousands of innocent people? Should the Netherlands lay siege to America because they arrest women for taking their tops off in public and put people in prison for smoking weed? I mean, these are internal issues which nations need to sort out for themselves. You can't force a certain morality on people under threat of violence - it just doesn't work. It has never worked in all of history and, more often than not, has generally been nothing more than an excuse for sabre-rattling and a pretext for war. All of these wars have nothing to do about human rights or dignity or freedom or democracy or prosperity for anyone. They're about control - of land and resources which are accessible on that land. That's what all war has ever been about since the beginning of time.

The Irish and the British? That was nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the fact of who expropriated land from whom. Israel and Palestine? Nothing to do with Jews and Muslims and everything to do with who expropriated land from whom. WWII? Little to do with Jews and everything to do with Hitler trying to expropriate the whole of Europe. Korea...Vietnam... the Visigoths and the Romans, I mean, it's all the same crap. Force doesn't solve anyone's problems ever - it only takes stuff away from people who aren't strong enough to hang onto it themselves.


...in my humble, tinfoil-hat-wearing opinion :lol:

[Kindrd]

I am not going to get into a big political discussion here, I do that elsewhere but will say this. You support your countries troops because they do not decide where they are deployed. Policy should be blamed on politicians. America is still a great country and I will always stand by her side, even when shes wrong. Enough said.

[The Cook]

Well, as always, Zero makes good points in his recent post. But I would argue that we are helping the Afghani people in a struggle against militant Islamicists, and we are not necessarily imposing a foreign regime on them. The Afghani people suffered under a Taliban regime, and our objective is to smash the Taliban and make it possible for the people to live ordinary, safe lives. Yes, foreign intervention does not always work. I'd say Vietnam and Iraq are very good examples of the doctrine of "regime change"that failed miserably. I hold out hope that the Afghan mission objectives will be fulfilled for all our sakes.

[Zero]

But I would argue that we are helping the Afghani people in a struggle against militant Islamicists, and we are not necessarily imposing a foreign regime on them.

No, but we are supporting a very much corrupt regime which has been imposed upon them. In domestic law, I think we generally treat accomplices to crimes little different than those primarily guilty. I don't see how that ethical framework should change when we're dealing with international issues.

[1wilco]

i will use my first post to reply to this thread. I was in the military, saw action, and do not agree with your post, but I do respect it. I get fed it with people showing fake patriotism by putting those damn yellow ribbons on their cars and then forgetting about them. i was proud to do my job at the time, and i am proud of being a civilian now about to start a family. these men you talk about that you shouldnt be proud of because you say they doing their job, well, every day when i reflect on those men (not the circumstances) I am in awe that I got to stand by their sides. being in the service I got to experiece a human bond beyond anything the civilian world has to offer. in the miltary you are so connected with each other, I was closer to those men than I am to my own fiance today. they give and they dont ask questions, they stand by you when you grieve, and will do anything to take care of each other. i almost feel sorry for civilians for not being able to experience that bond, but I would never wish they had to go through what I did to experience it.

bottom line, they are doing their job. it is easy for us to criticise the war through our western eyes, we have freedoms and privaledges that people in afghan/iraq couldnt dream of (afghanistan is definitely better off, iraq is starting, we didnt foresee the problems there, i admit, we were very ignorant to the culture and the people). Americans really are trying to make things better, and im the first one to admit we have f%$cked up alot. another thing, i know they are doing their job keeping america safe because things i personally saw and witnessed while in uniform. the div. i was with kept alot of things out of america you wouldnt want in your backyard.

i hate the fact that we have to have a military, but i understand its necessity in this world. soldiers/sailors/marines want peace more than anyone on the face of this earth, and they appreciate it a hell of alot more, and that comes from personal experience.

it just chaps my ass to see people have such incredible opinions on war and how things should be done when sometimes they have never experienced a situation in their lives when theyve never been asked to give something of themselves for someone else. thats why we should RESPECT the soldiers (maybe not love them). they do deserve respect. you have no idea how much it hurts to come home through an American airport and be called names.

also...they arent brainwashed, they are trained, there is a huge difference. I am not brainwashed in any way, nor was anyone i served with. we were taught how to be men and women at 18 years old in a country where most 25 year olds still cant live on their own. I appreciate my freedom much more having served, and I did my part to make sure that no country/man/army/etc can come to the United States of America and tell anyone what to do.

on a side note....if American soldiers are such animals, why do we go the trouble of giving medical treatment to people that try to kill us? how do you not stand in awe when you see an American corpsman rush to save an enemy combatant that just fired at him?

[1wilco]

oh yeah, and i couldnt agree with you more about the constitution, it doesnt seem to mean anything anymore. look at what our country has come to, .gov telling what we can do (and eventually what healthcare plan to purchase), our financial stability controlled (f%^ social security), .gov popping in on our convo's (pat.act), and income redistribution.....America is headed for socialism, where success is punished by high taxes. there are people in this country that pay 49% of their income in taxes! that is an abomination.

vote ron paul!

[The Cook]

...there are people in this country that pay 49% of their income in taxes! that is an abomination...!

Those people are the ultra-rich, or maybe not, as the rich have incredible tax loopholes and Bush-style tax relief. Possibly the upper-middle class instead. I say soak the rich and distribute the wealth to the working class and the poor :wink:

[databat]

IMO, Vietnam was a failure because too many politicians stuck their nose into things and wouldn't let the soldiers do what they were sent there to do in the first place. Of course, these days most politicians tend to screw things up. The current election coming up scares the crap out of me. I'm not really 100% happy with any of the candidates. As a civilian, the only way I can help change things is to place my vote, e-mail my congress-critters when they start screwing up, etc.

I am also worried about the direction America is headed towards. The dreaded "Nanny State". Take the entire tobacco issue for example. Special interest groups lobby, shout, put ads on TV and complain that the tobacco products being sold are harmful. So the US tobacco companies attempt to market snus, a safer alternative to smoking. (Albeit an inferior product compared to what you can buy from Sweden.) Then they get attacked with the same "this will kill you" propaganda without doing any research on the product. These anti-tobacco groups show their true colors in this. They don't really want safer tobacco products. Instead they really want to a. Get tobacco prohibition in place. b. Still serve a purpose to get donations, funds, etc. by finding something else to complain about.

I do not think the government has any right whatsoever to tell me what I can and can't put into my body. However, I do think that smokeless tobacco products in America should be regulated by the FDA as a food product just as it is in Sweden. It sure would be nice to know what's in that tin of Copenhagen I kept stuffing in my mouth for almost 26 years. This would go a long way towards getting safer tobacco products.

For those that don't know, the oral tobacco ban in the EU took place shortly after American tobacco companies attempted to market it there, and it was found dangerous. Of course it's dangerous if they have no accountability for what they put in it. However if people knew they put Klingon feces in it, or *insert your preferred grossest ingredient imaginable here*, people wouldn't purchase it unless they changed the product to something safer. A clear listing of what goes in it approved by the FDA would also get the anti-tobacco lobbyists to shut their pie-holes or risk sounding like lunatics.

In short, I am for a weaker centralized government, and stronger local governments. This gives us easier choices as to which state we live in. If your state bans petting small furry farm critters, move to one that does allow it, etc. But this BS about stomping all over our constitutional rights must end. It's sickening. The worst part is that they have been doing it so gradually over the years, future generations really don't have any idea what freedoms they should have that were intended, and granted by the constitution. Furthermore, judges in America should go back to their intended purpose of interpreting and enforcing the laws instead of making up their own by completely twisting the wording of laws into something completely different just to achieve their own political agenda.

Again, the only thing I can do to effect change in my country is to annoy the crap out of my congress-critter, other various elected officials, and vote. The Republican party used to stand for something I strongly believed in. They have strayed far from that in recent years. I fear how much farther they may try to take it. In fact, it seems that both parties have gone to either the extreme left or extreme right. Everyone knows what happens when extremists end up in power. One massive Charlie Foxtrot...

*gets off soap box and passes it to the next person*