supporting the troops

[RealmofOpeth]

I am not going to get into a big political discussion here, I do that elsewhere but will say this. You support your countries troops because they do not decide where they are deployed. Policy should be blamed on politicians. America is still a great country and I will always stand by her side, even when shes wrong. Enough said.

They decided to join did they not? There is no draft. If there was, I would be supporting the troops as far as staying alive and all that jazz but not the war, like most people are with the situation now. But since they are not forced to join, I don't support them. I am already forced to support them through taxes.
If they decide to fight for whatever bullshit war is handed to them, it's ultimately their decision. I mean I know guys are naive when they're fresh out of high school, and there's people who have no choice in life but to join the military to wing it through surviving a war to get education benefits and such. They're ignorant and/or desperate. This social construct that joining the military is a great thing to do, regardless of war, is the culprit and needs to end. It is what makes the youth naive. If people really understood the value of joining to serve the country, instead of being fed a flat position, they wouldn't be joining anywhere near as much. It's nothing personal, because there are a lot of good guys in the military who really think they're doing good, and they do do good, but overall the whole objective is futile. It's like a boycott...if people hate the war, then they stop supporting the troops, then the drive to keep the war going obviously dwindles. Unless you actually think the war has some use, then supporting the troops is the way to go. Supporting the troops but being against the war doesn't make much sense.
My semi-girlfriend said she was going into the air force. Most people would be like 'good luck' and 'congratulations', 'thanks for deciding to serve our country'. I told her straight up, I'm not supporting her decision. I wasn't telling her what to do, but I told her of all the things to expect and what it means ethically and so on. I'm sick of this cultural zeitgeist of being politically correct and fitting the pre-ordained expectations of behavior.
Just ask yourself if you were a citizen in nazi Germany during ww2...would you have supported the German troops?
People rarely think of it in the opposite direction. I have an Iraqi friend. He doesn't hate Americans. He hates our troops and our governing establishment that has the war going. He knows some troops are good guys, but the fact that they're all over there, occupying the place for corrupt politicians pisses him off. He supports the guys trying to get Iraq back. If I was him, I would too. Just like if we had an evil government, that say China claimed they would save us from and invaded and ****ed everything up...I would definitely support whatever form of fighting them offI would be supporting the 'insurgents' trying to regain their sovereignty. And I'm not talking the religious terrorists...there's various factions over there as you should be well aware...one of which is the Iraqi resistance who is fighting just about everybody who has come into ruin the place....they want their country back.
Somehow it seems impossible for people to think of it in the opposite direction, because we're here, there over there....we support our 'sides' no matter what. I'm tired of that 'good german' loyalty. Just because examples like Rommel was a decent guy to our POW's, doesn't make supporting the german troops as a whole worth it. It's the obedient citizen mentality of Germany at the time that had a huge factor on making the war as big as it was.
I'm also tired of people being skiddish and deathly afraid of ever talking about the subject because of fears of feeling hostile to somebody who doesn't agree. That goes for any subject, like religion. If nobody talks about it in an attempt to deconstruct and examine these long held, rigid beliefs about the way things should be and all that, the underlying problem is ignored.

[lxskllr]

Ya know, I'm calling bullshit... If you were really in the military you know how the system works. Our military is the reason you aren't speaking German today. Troops do what their told by their commanders. They aren't paid to think, they're paid to fight. Whether that's fascist takeover of Europe, Chinese invasion of our borders, or a bullshit war in a third world country. I support the troops because they're overworked, under paid, and they do a job most candy assed Americans wouldn't/couldn't do. Political bullshit doesn't enter the equation. You have a home because of the military.

[RealmofOpeth]

Ya know, I'm calling bullshit... If you were really in the military you know how the system works. Our military is the reason you aren't speaking German today. Troops do what their told by their commanders. They aren't paid to think, they're paid to fight. Whether that's fascist takeover of Europe, Chinese invasion of our borders, or a bullshit war in a third world country. I support the troops because they're overworked, under paid, and they do a job most candy assed Americans wouldn't/couldn't do. Political bullshit doesn't enter the equation. You have a home because of the military.

Yeah, I do know how the system works. it's nothing mysterious or esoteric. Perhaps what's mysterious is that it's not as esoteric or grand as people think it is or that what the movies portray isn't always the case. I did my job. But increasingly the smile on my face wore off. The same with my colleagues while I was in. Many troops are getting sick of fighting/supporting something they don't know the meaning of. They're not buying the propaganda as easily anymore. I am one of those and opted out of re-enlisting.
Life was much better when I was in the military because I was getting paid a lot better than I am now. I just felt no sense of real purpose, no living up to REALLY defending the country...that has nothing to do with simply being in the AF either.
No offense, but the reasons you give are the same rehashed reasons I've already responded to here....and nothing I haven't heard repeatedly before. The reason we're not speaking German today has nothing to do with what the military is doing now. I'm not saying all of the military is bogus. Of course we need a military. But the mission right now is bogus. The military I support are those who are actively thwarting REAL threats...whatever those may be and whoever they are. Anymore it's impossible to tell with how much bullshit the government and media spew.

You seem to think that those who join the military are somehow born into the military with no choice. People join the military because they think it serves their country or they can get benefits from doing so. If they had the knowledge that not all wars are worth fighting for, they wouldn't be joining...that is where the choice is made where they are not forced to make (yet).
I thank the military for having a real impact, not a popularly perceived one. The reason this country is great is PARTLY because of a military, but CERTAINLY not because of EVERY war it fights. I don't see how people can't understand this.

This black/white perception of what I"m saying (what? doesn't support the military? he must hate the military!) is also a little annoying. It's human nature I suppose, so it's nothing personal. But there are shades of grey of not having support for the military. Like I've said numerous times already in this thread, I don't hate the military, we need a military, etc...we just don't need this bullshit going on now and the fervent support for it to keep it going. The country is going ****ing broke and our freedoms are getting smaller anyway. It's that simple.
There comes a time when we need to be honest with ourselves and forget these romantic ideals and good manners in favor of not ****ing ourselves over.
Change the role of the military from empire back into minding our own business, change it back to department of defense instead of offense....I'm all for the military then. Otherwise it's a joke. fervent support no matter what is not wise, on any subject. It's that complacency and hard-line pride that makes the problem bigger and can bring down countries.

[lxskllr]

I never claimed there was anything mysterious about the military. The facts are we need one, and they go where they're told to go. You don't enlist with the understanding that you only fight aggression on our borders. You do what your commander(in this case GWB) tells you to do, every time he tells you to do it. It doesn't matter if you believe in the war, the propaganda, or anything else. You go and do your job to the best of your ability. That's why the troops need to be supported, and given respect for what their doing. It doesn't matter what you, me or anybody else thinks of this particular war. After they're finished in Iraq they could just as easily repelling the Chinese from our borders. Will they deserve support then?

[RealmofOpeth]

I never claimed there was anything mysterious about the military. The facts are we need one, and they go where they're told to go. You don't enlist with the understanding that you only fight aggression on our borders. You do what your commander(in this case GWB) tells you to do, every time he tells you to do it. It doesn't matter if you believe in the war, the propaganda, or anything else. You go and do your job to the best of your ability. That's why the troops need to be supported, and given respect for what their doing. It doesn't matter what you, me or anybody else thinks of this particular war. After they're finished in Iraq they could just as easily repelling the Chinese from our borders. Will they deserve support then?

Well you're implying I'm lying about being in the military because you think I don't know how it works. as if being in the military gains some sort of secret understanding of unconditional support no matter what they are told to do. I know we need a military, as I've said about 3 times now. There's NO argument there. Of course you don't enlist with the understanding that you only fight agression on the borders or do whatever you feel like. But you do enlist with the understanding that you're serving the COUNTRY, protecting the constitution. Right now they're serving the big business interests and power hungry politician goals. Not the people nor the constitution. That's what wore the smile off my face. Not because I wasn't able to do whatever I felt like doing beyond what I was sworn to do. Obeying orders from the CEO is conditional upon the integrity of the CEO. Unless you think GWB, since he's president, it is somehow a universal law of physics that he's automatically giving a shit about our freedom and wellbeing...in which case following orders is a must regardless. But it isn't. If he's breaking laws and rewriting the rules...if his word is as good as gold, but the constitution can be bended every which way...what basis to following orders is there?

Just because you 'go do your job' really doesn't mean much. People in the mob who 'just do what they're told, they do their job' when they carry out a hit on somebody don't get the same respect. People under any circumstance, if they're told to do something futile or hurtful, and just do it because they were told, don't automatically deserve respect. Remember the Nuremburg trials where German officials tried the excuse of "i was just following orders"? It didn't work for them, how does it work for us? Soldiers who refuse orders because they are unlawful ones deserve respect. In fact the UCMJ calls for it. Remember A Few Good Men? Not every mission deserves respect to a bunch of programmable automatons who willfully/ignorantly chose to become one. I ignorantly chose to become one because of the godlike image society gives to the military ....I never understood the respect people gave me simply because I was in the military beyond it just being social conditioning than the fruits of my labor. Respect should never be automatic, it is earned. What makes the military exempt? The respect I give to military personnel are those who really want to do good and aren't afraid to use their intuition to realize when they've been had. Examples like USMC Maj Gen Smedley Butler comes to mind of military personnel who were REAL patriots. Why do you think so much military contributions have been given to Ron Paul? He wants to end this bullshit in Iraq and get the guys home. Stop creating enemies and going broke by being dispersed all over the world and having interventionist policy.
It matters very much what we think of the war. We're the people. the government answers to us...they aren't because we're not holding their feet to the fire enough. The only time it doesn't matter is when you're in a dictatorship...and saying it shouldn't matter is if you condone dictatorship. Vietnam was a failure, not because we had enough protest going on, but because it was a failure from the beginning. The protesting brought the failure to an end quicker. Do we have to wait until 60 thousand troops die and 300 thousand wounded to ramp up protesting? Or can we come off our high horse and see the major problem before it gets out of control? How can we repel the Chinese or any other threat from our borders while we're tied up in Iraq? What makes you think greater threats are only going to come after we're 'done' over there? Of course they deserve the support where the support needs it. Being in Iraq while we go broke, piss people off and lose our constitution, there is no need.

[Zero]

...there are people in this country that pay 49% of their income in taxes! that is an abomination...!

Those people are the ultra-rich, or maybe not, as the rich have incredible tax loopholes and Bush-style tax relief. Possibly the upper-middle class instead. I say soak the rich and distribute the wealth to the working class and the poor :wink:

Well, while the Robin Hood ideal sounds good on paper, the economics of the situation are somewhat different. I think it's a question of praxeology - asking the question "Does the policy have the intended consequences?" rather than "Does the policy sound like a good idea?". I'll suggest reading Friedman's "Capitalism and Freedom" - it's a short book with a huge amount of ideas which are all well presented. It changed my mind about a lot of things and got me thinking about a lot of things which I had previously not even considered. Growing up in Canada, I was also a staunch socialist, but I've totally changed my thinking about a lot of our policy in the past few years.

[1wilco]

Another thing alot of people dont realize is the more you tax those business owners (small or big), the more they will push those costs on the consumer. I would rather have the businesses get good tax breaks and bet on the decency of a good business owner to pass the extra money onto his employess them have the government try to do it for us. Maybe even isolated decency on behalf of a fellow countryman is better than forced conformity by the powers that be.

[The Cook]

Zero - this from the 24 Jan edition of the Globe&Mail. Thought you might find it interesting:

Web-exclusive comment
Being in Afghanistan is dangerous, not being in Afghanistan is more dangerous

BAN KI-MOON

Special to Globe and Mail Update

January 24, 2008 at 1:28 AM EST

Afghanistan is a potent symbol of the costs inherent in abandoning nations to the lawless forces of anarchy. That alone justifies international efforts to help rebuild the country. Lest there be any doubt, remember Sept. 11, 2001, and its worldwide reverberations. We learned then how a country, shorn of its civic institutions, becomes a vacuum to be filled by criminals and opportunists. In its chaos and poverty, Afghanistan became a home base for terrorism.

Must we learn that lesson all over again? The past six years have seen a massive international partnership to rebuild Afghanistan's state institutions. A modern constitution was adopted after widespread popular consultations. Presidential and parliamentary elections were held. Three million refugees returned from decades of exile. Clearly, a large majority of the population supports the international community's efforts on Afghans' behalf.

Yet, this progress is in jeopardy. Once again, the opportunists are on the rise, seeking anew to make Afghanistan a lawless place — a locus of instability, terrorism and drug trafficking. Their means are desperate: suicide bombs, kidnappings, the killing of government officials and hijacking of aid convoys. Almost more dismaying is the response of some outside Afghanistan, who react by calling for a disengagement or the full withdrawal of international forces. This would be a misjudgment of historic proportions, the repetition of a mistake that has already had terrible consequences.

The United Nations has been in Afghanistan for many decades. Our institutional memory stretches back to the traumas of the Taliban, and beyond to the era when rival militias battled one another for the meagre spoils of a country broken by civil war. Our hopes for the future look to a day when Afghan state institutions stand on their own, able to tackle with dignity the difficult tasks of reconstruction and development while providing security and justice within secure borders.

I believe that day is within reach. We cannot let it be lost to the inhuman violence of today's insurgents.

For all the frustrations and periodic setbacks, I am heartened by the strong and sustained international support given to Afghanistan. Security concerns notwithstanding, there has been obvious progress. Girls' school enrolment has increased dramatically in the past five years. Six million children are in schools today, compared to less than a million under the Taliban. More than five million children have been immunized against polio, crucial not only for them, but also for our fight to eradicate polio worldwide. Half a million Afghans have gained access to safe water.

New roads are helping farmers get produce to markets. Afghan farmers are meeting 95 per cent of the country's grain needs; in 2001, the figure was less than 50 per cent. The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission, created following the 2001 Bonn Agreement, now has nine provincial offices, actively promoting human rights. Under the Taliban, women's participation in public and political life was non-existent. Today, 28 per cent of the seats in parliament are held by women.

The United Nations, alongside national and international counterparts, non-governmental organizations and Afghan civil society, will continue to provide the Afghan government whatever assistance it needs to build on these achievements. Our collective success depends on the continuing presence of the International Security Assistance Force, commanded by NATO and helping local governments in nearly every province to maintain security and carry out reconstruction projects.

In December, the Afghan National Army, supported by ISAF forces, reclaimed the town of Musa Qala in the southern province of Helmand, occupied by insurgents since February of 2007, and a major poppy-growing area. Significantly, it was led by the Afghan army and carried out at the request of the local population. At long last, development work can begin anew in Musa Qala.

The Afghan government has far to go before it regains control of its own destiny. But that day will come. It is hard work. There is little glory. It requires sacrifices. And that is why we are there.

Ban Ki-moon is Secretary-General of the United Nations.

[victoryredchevy]

I support the troops no matter what. All the American troops do is what they're told to do. Do I agree with what is going on with our soldiers in the mid-east hellhole..... ABSOLUTELY not. I think too many are dying for a fight that stopped being the U.S.'s a long time ago. Do I think it's time for Bush to bring the boys back home..... you bet your ass I do. Just because this "war" has been exhausted and is a mistake now,in my opinion,doesn't mean I'll ever stop supporting our troops. They're sent on a mission, they do what they're told and then they come home, hopefully alive and not dead. I think Iraq is a lost cause for "reforming". It just flat out ain't gonna happen. It's time for this crap to end and troops to stop dying now. That's how I feel. The war=bullcrap. It's not a war people. The troops= Good men that went over to do their duty. I won't stop supporting them just because I think this "war" is pointless and I hate it. Call me backwoods or a redneck. It doesn't bother me, cause I'm kinda both of those, but one thing you can say for sure that I am is a patriot. I love this country, but we're fighting a war we can't win. I support the troops.

[Zero]

I don't care what a person's job is - I have nothing but contempt for human beings who only "do what they're told to do". If we act like sheep, then we will be treated like sheep - cared for like sheep, and slaughtered like sheep. The great source of all evil in the world is human stupidity - the predilection for large groups of us to simply do what we are told without thinking. This disengagement from an active form of responsibility is exactly the reason and means by which humans have been manipulated by self-styled "leaders" since time immemorial. So long as we continue to do so and continue to hold those who live up to this "ideal" in some sort of laughable light of respect, then so shall we condemn ourselves to future suffering at the hands of manipulative madmen. Are you a man or are you a sheep?

[lxskllr]

I don't care what a person's job is - I have nothing but contempt for human beings who only "do what they're told to do".

In the military you have to do what you're told. A army of free thinkers, is a army defeated before it even hits the battlefield. You do what your told, or you die. Those are the only 2 options.

[slatter]

baaaaaaaa.....baaaaaaaaaa......







just kidding.

[Zero]

I don't care what a person's job is - I have nothing but contempt for human beings who only "do what they're told to do".

In the military you have to do what you're told. A army of free thinkers, is a army defeated before it even hits the battlefield. You do what your told, or you die. Those are the only 2 options.

Nonsense - one can balance the chain of command with a judicious application of a sense of justice and law.

[chainsnuser]

one can balance the chain of command with a judicious application of a sense of justice and law.

... which would be illegal in every country of the world, I guess.

The Iraq-war is senseless in every regard, no doubt, but I don't see that the current situation gives any soldier the right to refuse the service, legally.

If you're talking about deserting and about living on the run for the rest of one's life, then it's another topic. I've seen a documentary about vietnam-deserters, some weeks ago on TV. These people still live underground! Even in Germany, you won't find a single "monument of the unknown deserter".

Cheers!

[Bosco]

I don't care what a person's job is - I have nothing but contempt for human beings who only "do what they're told to do".

In the military you have to do what you're told. A army of free thinkers, is a army defeated before it even hits the battlefield. You do what your told, or you die. Those are the only 2 options.

Nonsense - one can balance the chain of command with a judicious application of a sense of justice and law.

Sorry dude but if you are talking about the average soldier then that is bullshit. You have to act as soon as orders are given. Any split second that you spend trying to think if you should do what you're told or not then that could mean the difference between life and death. I know this as fact and that is why I came home when others didn't. Do I support the war? No. Do I support my friends that have gone back over? Hell yes I do.