Polish President died in plane crash.

[Mazur]

A plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski and many other VIP has crashed near a Russian airport. There are no survivors in that crash.

According to preliminary reports, it got caught up in the tops of trees, fell to the ground and broke up into pieces. There are no survivors in that crash. 132 (or 87) person on board.

They were in Russia to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when Soviets killed thousands of Polish officers.

[lxskllr]

I just heard that this morning. My condolences Mazur.

[The Drummer]

Here, in Poland, we have no words to describe it. It's one of worst days of our country. My wife cried, when she called me in the morning.
And this anniversary: Katyn 1940- Katyn 2010 :cry:

[Roo]

I'm so sorry to hear about this tremendous loss for Poland. What an awful tragedy. It's hard to believe that so many of the country's top leaders would be put on the same plane, and even more shocking is that the President's jet was the notorious Tupeolov 154. I flew on one of these aircraft a couple years ago between Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan and I have never been more scared to fly in my life. There was graffiti on my tray table that included the date 1981. It sounds like this had little or nothing to do with the aircraft invlolved, but why on earth would Poland use such an old and accident-prone aircraft for such important people? It doesn't matter. This is very sad news and it doesn't help to wonder such things. Mazur and Drummer, I wish you, your families, and your country a speedy recovery and I hope also that social and political stability can be maintained throughout the process of replacing your fallen leaders.

Edit: the plane I flew on was an older model with only a handful still in use, the Tu 154-B2, while this plane had to have been the slightly better and newer 154-M, but still, these planes go down hard at least once a year it seems. Last year at this time it was a Caspian Air flight from Tehran to Yerevan, Armenia.

[scylla]

A tough break for one of our staunchest allies.

I know they will bounce back stronger than ever. Poles are tough cookies.

Read about the katyn massacre that happened during WW2. Some real blood curdling stuff.

[sgreger1]

This is an unspeakable tragedy, they are saying now 97 people died?

This is horrible but honestly it could have been prevented.

1) Don't pack the President, Chief of Staff, most important Army Commanders , Cental Bank Governor, Ombudsman for Citizen Rights, The Last President of Poland in exile, well-known deputies and many other important people onto one plane, for obvious security reasons.
2)Poland has had a very outdated air fleet for some time, due to cuts in spending; a few years ago the helicopter of the Polish prime minister (Miller) crashed. The Tupolevs were called "flying coffins". "According to the Aviation Safety Network, there have been 66 crashes involving Tu-154s, including six in the past five years."


Hopefully this will prompt them to inspect the planes better or replace the polish "air force one" with something more stable. The irony of this happening on a flight back from the 70'th anniversary of soviets killing thousands of Polish officers cannot go unnoticed but at the end of the day it was just pilot error coupled with an unsafe airplane and poor security measures.

Shout out to all of our polish members. From what I gather this particular president wasn't very popular, not sure if this is true but I know there has been a lot of political heat between the PO and the PIS.



List of dead (poorly translated)

Mr. Lech Kaczynski, Polish President
Mrs. Maria Kaczynska wife of Polish President

OFFICIAL DELEGATION
1. Mr Ryszard Kaczorowski, former president of Poland in Exile 2. Mr. Krzysztof Putra Sejm Marshal 3. Mr. Jerzy Szmajdzinski Sejm Marshal 4. Krystyna Bochenek Deputy Senate 5. BAHR Jerzy Ambassador of the Russian Federation 6. Mr. Wladyslaw STASIAK Chief Presidential Chancellery 7. Mr. Aleksander Szczyglo Head of National Security 8. Mr. Jacek Sasin Secretary of State, Deputy Head of the Presidential Chancellery 9. Mr. Paul WYPYCH Secretary of State in the President's Chancellery 10. Mariusz Handzlik Undersecretary of State in the Chancellery of the President 11. Mr. Andrzej Kremer, Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs 12. Mr. Stanislaw Komorowski, Undersecretary of State in the Defence 13. Mr. Tomasz Merta Undersecretary of State in the Ministry of Culture 14. Gen. Franciszek Gagor Chief of General Staff of Polish Army 15. Mr AndrzejPRZEWOZNIK Secretary ROPWiM 16. Mr. Maciej Plazynski President of the Association "Polish Community" 17. Mariusz KAZANA MFA Diplomatic Protocol Director

REPRESENTATIVES OF THE ARMED FORCES RP
1. Gen. Gen. Bronislaw KWIATKOWSKI Operational Commander of Polish Armed Forces 2. Gen. broni pil. Gen. pil. Andrew Blasik Polish Air Force Commander 3. Gen. dyw. Maj.-Gen. Tadeusz BUK Commander of Land Forces of Poland 4. Gen. dyw. Maj.-Gen. Wlodzimierz POTASINSKI Polish Special Forces Commander 5. Andrzej KARWETA Dowódca Marynarki Wojennej RP Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta Commander Navy 6. Gen. bryg. Brig. Kazimierz GILARSKI Commander Training Centre Warsaw

PARLIAMENT REPRESENTATIVES RP
1. Mr. Leszek Deptula deputy to the Sejm 2. Mr. Gregory Dolniak deputy to the Sejm 3. Ms. Grazyna Gesicka deputy to the Sejm
4. Mr. Przemyslaw Gosiewski deputy to the Sejm 5. Mr. Sebastian KARPINIUK deputy to the Sejm 6. Ms. Izabela Jaruga - Nowacka Member of Parliament of the Republic of Poland 7. Mr. Zbigniew Wassermann deputy to the Sejm 8. Ms. Alexander Natallia - WORLD Member of the Sejm 10. Mr. Arkadiusz Rybicki deputy to the Sejm 11. Jolanta Szymanek - Deresz Member of the Sejm 12. Wieslaw WATER deputy to the Sejm 13. Mr. Edward Wojtas deputy to the Sejm 14. Janina FETLINSKA Senator RP 15. Mr. Stanislaw ZAJAC Senator RP

ACCOMPANYING PERSONS
1. Mr. Janusz Kochanowski Ombudsman Citizen Laws 2. Mr Skawomir Skrzypek, President of the Polish National Bank 3. Janusz Kurtyka President of the Institute of National Remembrance 4. Janusz Krupski Director of the Office for War Veterans and Repressed Persons

REPRESENTATIVES Churches and Religious Affairs
1. Tadeusz Ploski Ordinary of the Polish Army 2. Miron Chodakowski Orthodox Ordinary Polish Army 3. Adam PILCH Ewangelickie Duszpasterstwo Polowe 4. Col. Adam Pilch Evangelical Chaplaincy 5. Lt. Col. John OSINSKI Ordinariate of the Polish Army


Katyn Families REPRESENTATIVES AND OTHER ASSOCIATIONS
1. Mr. Edward Duchnowski Secretary General of Association of Siberian Deportees 2. Ks. Fr. Monsignor Bronislaw Gostomski 3. Ks. Fr. Parafiada Association President Joseph Joniec Parafiada 4. Ks. Fr. Zdzislaw KING Chaplain Warsaw Katyn Families 1987-2007 5. Ks. Fr. Chaplain Andrew Kwasnik Federation of Katyn Families 6. Pan Tadeusz LUTOBORSKI 7. Bozena Lojek President of the Polish Foundation for Katyn 8. Mr. Stefan Melaka Katyn Committee Chairman 9. Mr. Stanislaw Mikke Vice ROPWiM 10. Mrs. Bronislaw Orawiec - Löffler 11. Ms. Catherine Piskorska 12. Mr Andrew SARIUSZ - SKAPSKI President Federation of Katyn Families 13. Mr Wojciech SEWERYN 14. Mr. Leszek Solski 15. Ms. Teresa Walewska - PRZYJALKOWSKA Foundation "Golgotha of the East" 16. Ms. Gabriela Zych 17. Ewa Bakowska granddaughter of Brig. Mieczyslaw Smorawinski 18. Mrs. Maria Borowska 19. Mr. Bartosz BOROWSKI 20. Mr. Dariusz MALINOWSKI





^--- Talk about an all-star lineup all stashed on one plane.

[Mazur]

I just heard that this morning. My condolences Mazur.

thanks

Don't pack the President, Chief of Staff, most important Army Commanders , Cental Bank Governor, Ombudsman for Citizen Rights, The Last President of Poland in exile, well-known deputies and many other important people onto one plane

It is not really important. Our State is constructed that way that this not influence our ability to function. They were VIPs but it is easy to replace them with others.
One thing that is impossible, is to replece them as their families members.

Poland has had a very outdated air fleet for some time

That is true but Charles Lindbergh (also snus user) used much more simple machines to fly and land.

As for now it looks that all of them was killed by fourth Weapon of Influence (Cialdini - Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion) - Authority. And Authorities used that weapon because they did not want to be late on Katyn memorial service. Antd pilot obey.
I'm not sure of that and still waiting for results of official investigation.

this particular president wasn't very popular

Yes, he was attacked be most of main mass media in Poland because he did not agreed with ideas of former communists, so was not popular.
PO is not harmfull for Status Quo (Milton Friedman) so they are supported by all main mass media in Poland.

[sgreger1]

How is it not important? It seems like a bad idea to put all of the important people in one place on a plane that's had safety issues in the past, because if god forbid should something happen, well then all the important people are dead. Hopefull they can replace them, but like you said, you can never replace a fallen family member. My heart goes out to all of their families.

Muzur, what kind of government does Poland have? I am not too familiar with it. From what I gather they are still torn between communism and a more western approach, and the current president was anti-communism.

That is true but Charles Lindbergh (also snus user) used much more simple machines to fly and land.

Lol, while yes mr Lindbergh was the john wayne of flying machines, I would imagine the airplane the president takes should be of the highest quality for safety reasons. I am not sure how it works there i'm just amazed they chose this kind of plane to put so many important people on considering it's had so many crashes in the past.



And i'm interested in what you said about the "authority" thing. Did the passengers demand the pilot to land even though conditions were bad? That's what it sounds like, they put the pilot under pressure to "make it happen" and land the damn thing on time and so the pilot missed his mark and now they are blaming it on "pilot error".

[Roo]

It's not only that the Tupelov 154 has crashed so many times, a fact that owes a lot to the sheer number of flight hours over all the years, but more disconcerting to me is how OLD those planes are. They have been out of production for decades. Only a few of the national carriers and smaller airlines in Russia and the former Soviet Bloc still operate routes using the Tu-154; almost everyone has retired those planes long ago, and for good reason. I don't mean any disrespect after such a horrible tragedy, but Poland could have at least sprung for a nice, new A340 or a Boeing 747 for the president. It wouldn't have necessarily prevented yesterday's events, but it's a solid step toward ensuring the President's safety.

[Mr. Snuffleupagus]

If I was President, I would want to ride all the old school stuff as well. Lot's of history there...Like I hate new cars you know?

[Roo]

I take your meaning Snuffy, but at 30,000 feet form is gonna have to follow function for me everytime. (unless I had an open-cockpit biplane and flight goggles) I've never been a nervous flier until I boarded a Tupelov that was as old as me. When the bus pulled up to our plane on the tarmac, all of the locals onboard groaned in unison as we pulled up to the only Tu-154B out there. This Kazakh dude turned to us white folks and said "we are all going to die". Sorry Mazur, I'm not trying to make light of this. Are people talking about this in Poland, expressing surprise at the use of such a notoriously sketchy plane? Does LOT fly any Tupelovs on domestic routes?

Edited for spelling and clarity

EDIT again: never mind. This is such a serious tragedy and my stupid commentary isn't necessary. Please disregard everything I said except my condolences.

[sgreger1]

I just heard on the news that they are holding a special election in 14 days for a replacement. It sounds like the pilot was warned against landing, but under pressure from the big shots on-board, he continued to land in unsafe conditions which led to this tragic event.


Another thing that sucks is that the Prez who just died was anti-cummunism and very pro-US. In other news, apparently there are still pro-us countries.

[Roo]

Another thing that sucks is that the Prez who just died was anti-cummunism and very pro-US. In other news, apparently there are still pro-us countries.

Why are you hung up on his views on communism? Not giving you a hard time I just don't get it. America vs. Communism is a very antiquated way to look at things, and that was just a strange statement. Are you drunk? Poland has been a market-driven democracy for 21 years now... All this talk about communism and socialism and those ideas barely even exist anymore in practice.

[aj01]

Kacynski's death

Mazur, I grieve with you and all of Poland for the loss of President Kacynski, his wife, Maria, and all who were aboard for such a sacred visit.

I am in Russia now, and most here are in shock as well, especially considering that PMs Tusk and Putin had just met in Katyn' for the first of many steps to reconciliation for the brutalities which took place there. I lived several years in Poland, and I'm just wrecked by this.

One thing they are showing is that the Captain of the plane had approved its recent upgrade at the TU factory in Samara (where Polish Air Force 2 is under renovation currently). It has contemporary western avionics, and its physical condition may not end up being a factor. It was a decision made against the orders of the control tower to land in Minsk or Moscow.

Let's hope the strong faith of all on board gave them comfort in the last moments.

[sgreger1]

Another thing that sucks is that the Prez who just died was anti-cummunism and very pro-US. In other news, apparently there are still pro-us countries.

Why are you hung up on his views on communism? Not giving you a hard time I just don't get it. America vs. Communism is a very antiquated way to look at things, and that was just a strange statement. Are you drunk? Poland has been a market-driven democracy for 21 years now... All this talk about communism and socialism and those ideas barely even exist anymore in practice.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I thought they were communist at all. I mean to say that the president was very pro-US and not all the candidates are that way, so it's unfortunate for us to lose an ally (depending on who wins the next election).
There are no currently socialist states really and communism only exist in maybe places like N Korea, but even that is more of a dictatorship than anything.