Arizona passes law to pimp-slap illegals immegrants

[f. bandersnatch]

Be that as it may, is there anything in the op-ed that you dispute? Or is this your basic drive-by ad hominem?

I probably shouldn't have posted anything at all, it’s just that KK works in and (presumably) represents a place where I was born and raised, and I therefore feel obligated to give you my personal opinion on the man. Totally unfounded and completely subjective? Sure. Ad hominem? Not at all: The first thing I said was that it had nothing to do with the argument at hand. Can it be a logical fallacy when the speaker identifies it as such before committing it?

As far as the op-ed is concerned, I disagree with the basic idea that illegal immigration cannot be dealt with through any means other than enforcement of the laws we have now, but other than that, he seemed pretty on-point. I see nothing wrong with giving the various Arizona police agencies the directive necessary to enforce these laws, but I will continue to be baffled as to how we have come upon these particular laws as the solution to the problem.

[sgreger1]

I probably shouldn't have posted anything at all, it’s just that KK works in and (presumably) represents a place where I was born and raised, and I therefore feel obligated to give you my personal opinion on the man. Totally unfounded and completely subjective? Sure. Ad hominem? Not at all: The first thing I said was that it had nothing to do with the argument at hand. Can it be a logical fallacy when the speaker identifies it as such before committing it?

As far as the op-ed is concerned, I disagree with the basic idea that illegal immigration cannot be dealt with through any means other than enforcement of the laws we have now, but other than that, he seemed pretty on-point. I see nothing wrong with giving the various Arizona police agencies the directive necessary to enforce these laws, but I will continue to be baffled as to how we have come upon these particular laws as the solution to the problem.

Curiouse what other laws you would favor? I also don't think our laws right now are perfect but what's you take on the right way to enforce this?

[tom502]

I'd just do what Mexico does.

[sgreger1]

A report issued by Maricopa County's Attorney General Andrew Thomas in October 2008 reveals the extent of Arizona's problem with crime committed by illegal immigrants.

In 2007, illegal immigrants accounted for:

10% of sex crimes convictions
11% of murders convictions
13% of stolen cars convictions
13% of aggravated assaults convictions
17% of those sentenced for violent crimes
19% of those sentenced for property crimes
20% of those sentenced for felony DUI
21% of crimes committed with weapons
34% of those sentenced for the manufacture, sale or transport of drugs
36% of those sentenced for kidnapping
44% of forgeries
50% of those sentenced for crimes related to "chop shops"
85% of false ID convictions
96% of smuggling convictions

Illegal immigrants make up 19 percent of those convicted of crimes in Maricopa County and 21 percent of those in county jails.

Illegal immigrants make up an estimated 9 percent of the county's population.


Numbers are racist.

[danielan]

Sure. Ad hominem? Not at all: The first thing I said was that it had nothing to do with the argument at hand. Can it be a logical fallacy when the speaker identifies it as such before committing it?

Yea, I think so. Surely, it is more appropriate to point it out as you did.

But I think the basic thing was still essentially an ad hominem - that is, take whatever he says with a grain of salt because he is a racist dick (RD).

Which still amounts, more or less, IMO, to questioning the validity of whatever he says by suggesting that he is an RD and thus likely to say RD like things. This seems reasonably close to an ad hominem.

Not that I really care though. If he really is an RD, I'll know to consider that in the future.

I think generally, even if you label them, logical fallacies are still in effect.

i.e. This might be a slippery-slope, but if we don't solve the social security and medicare solvency problems then we're going to end up in an age-war.

[truthwolf1]

For Mexican Americans there is absolutely nothing to worry about because even if you dont have ID, you just give them your full name and date of birth and they check it on the database. The few times I have been in trouble with the law without my wallet that is how it worked for me.

Everytime a white, brown or yellow person flies they are being subjected to profiling so take your white guilt and blow it out your ass!!! Everyone is being profiled one way or another these days.

The last time I heard there are quite a few Black, Brown and Yellow cops also.

[f. bandersnatch]

Sgreger- I simply meant that I think we should work on taking away the incentives for illegal immigration into America. I guess you could say that I am for "strong borders", but I don't know what person would not be. I also think we should increase and change our approach to enforcement in two additional areas: employment and illegal drugs. If we take away the incentive of plentiful employment opportunities (all currently illegal in some way, yet not the focus of this law in particular), there will not be so much of a reason for the illegal immigrants to be here in the first place.

danielan- I would still hold that ad hominem requires transparency to operate as a true fallacy because it is not based on a logical deficiency, like slippery slope, but rather on an implied relationship between a man's character and his opinions. If that is not implied, or is denied, the fallacy is not in effect. But you are right, it really doesn't matter, and it is nice to spend some time arguing about useless academic things, either way. It is making me nostalgic. And like I said, I don't see anything wrong with the op-ed, I just feel obligated (in a vague, self-righteous way(which, to be fair, is pretty unusual for me)) to espouse opinion about the man.

[sgreger1]

You've got my vote bandersnatch.



No one could NOT be against illegal immegration if they knew the numbers. Anyone whos lived in a border city in a border state should know first hand what illegal imegration causes.



2006 (First Quarter) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants

CRIME STATISTICS 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

83% of warrants for murder in Phoenix are for illegal aliens.

86% of warrants for murder in Albuquerque are for illegal aliens.

75% of those on the most wanted list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

24.9% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

40.1% of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

48.2% of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally

29% (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons fill our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually

53% plus of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

50% plus of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

71% plus of all apprehended cars stolen in 2005 in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California were stolen by Illegal aliens or "transport coyotes".

47% of cited/stopped drivers in California have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 47%, 92% are illegal aliens.

63% of cited/stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 63%, 97% are illegal aliens

66% of cited/stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66% 98% are illegal aliens.

BIRTH STATISTICS 380,000 plus "anchor babies" were born in the U.S. in 2005 to illegal alien parents, making 380,000 babies automatically U.S.citizens.

97.2% of all costs incurred from those births were paid by the American taxpayers.




I don't want to hear shit from any politician on any issue regarding money or national security untill they address the 800 lb guerilla in the room that is illegal immegration.



EDIT: A few years down the road, when Arizona publishes it's statistics showing decreased crime, less money spent on welfare and Medicaid, less expenditures on prisoners and better school performance, this type of legislation will sweep the whole country.

[joshua]

I think it's funny a few of my co-workers who are touting Obama and the Democrats as communists are all about this "show me your papers" bullshit in Arizona. The hypocricy is astounding.

This shit isn't going to put a ****ing dent into illegal immigration AT ALL. It's going to do no ****ing good, period.

You want to know how to end it? If a company is found to have hired an illegal immigrant, the CEO himself hould be fined 6 figures for the first offense, 7 figures for the second and be put in prison for a year for the third. But this stupid bullshit isn't about ending illegal immigration, it's about control. And a law like I just suggested would never fly, the people who benefit from cheap immigrant labor would put millions upon millions of dollars towards defeating it.

Just keep that in mind when.

[sgreger1]

I think it's funny a few of my co-workers who are touting Obama and the Democrats as communists are all about this "show me your papers" bullshit in Arizona. The hypocricy is astounding.

This shit isn't going to put a ****ing dent into illegal immigration AT ALL. It's going to do no ****ing good, period.

You want to know how to end it? If a company is found to have hired an illegal immigrant, the CEO himself hould be fined 6 figures for the first offense, 7 figures for the second and be put in prison for a year for the third. But this stupid bullshit isn't about ending illegal immigration, it's about control. And a law like I just suggested would never fly, the people who benefit from cheap immigrant labor would put millions upon millions of dollars towards defeating it.

Just keep that in mind when.

Joshua. Respectfully I ask you to go actually read the bill. The intent of the bill is blatantly clear and is written in plain english. There is no "show me your papers". It just requires that if stopped for a crime or a traffic violation, you must show your drivers license. Why people feel showing a cop their DL when pulled over equates to communist russia is beyond me.

Secondly, the law hasn't even come into effect and IT HAS ALREADY dented the illegal population. In fact, according to AP, they are leaving in droves ALREADY.

And finally, it DOES address the employers, and imposes strict penalties on employers for hiring illegals. Plus, it SPECIFICALLY forbids using race as a deciding factor. Instead it just requires that you show a drivers license or other valid form of identification if stopped for something by a police officer.

Bonus: If you are a victim of a crime or a witness to a crime, they MAY NOT request your identification, because they do not want to deter illegals from reporting crimes, being witnesses, reporting crimes done to them etc.


Please, justify how the above stated things are in any way racially profiling, a "show me your papers" mandate, or any of the other faux facts I keep hearing people shout about.

READ THE BILL. It is already effective, so much so that 7 other states have already began considering similar legislation, on top of that, it has the support of 70% of the population in Arizona, especially the legal immegrants.

This bill is about is the best piece of common sense legislation I have seen passed in my adult life. Please rebuttal any of my above statements and I will provide you with text directly from the legislation to back it up.




EDIT: Bonus: An Arizona police deputy was shot in the stomach today by an illegal (drug smuggler). Surely asking them for ID is the real problem that needs to be addresses here.


In other immigration news:

ATLANTA (AP) - Federal agents say they have arrested 596 immigrants with criminal records during a three-day immigration enforcement sweep across the Southeast.
U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials said Friday that the operation, dubbed Operation Cross Check, was the largest ever conducted by the agency targeting foreign nationals convicted of crimes. They said the immigrants have already served their sentences and authorities will now seek to deport them.

Atlanta ICE Field Director Felicia Skinner says that "communities around the Southeast are safer than they were before" as a result. She said three of the people arrested this week had been convicted of murder and 144 were convicted on assault charges.

Finally this cancer of our nation is being stemmed with the strong arm of the law. The situation created by illegals is now center stage and perhaps we may finally have a chance to fix the largest problem in our country for the economic and national security fronts.

[sgreger1]

Please, if anyone can bring any evidence before me that this legislation will do any of the things people are screaming about, please present it. Justin perhaps, he always seem to be well researched. Stop the fear-mongering and fake racism. Read the bills, it's why they write them in English (for now at least)

[tom502]

If Shakira say's it's bad and against human rights, then it must be!

[ProudMarineDad]

This was in my local paper this morning in Greenville, SC. Comes from Nick Anderson at Houston Chronicle.

[whistlrr]

I have to say that some of this is not new.

Here in Michigan if you are driving a car you have to have a DL on you.
I think this is the same in Indiana and I suppose most states.

As far as walking about on foot and being required to present ID
I don't recall which it was (Michigan or Indiana) and I don't know if that law is still on the books, but at least one of them some 30 years or so ago had a 'vagrancy law' where when out walking about on foot you had to have both personal identification on you and a certain sum of money (I think it was something like $2.00) or you could be 'picked up for vagrancy.'

[timholian]

"Arizona passes law to pimp-slap illegals immigrants"

Its all fun and games till it starts to effect AMERICAN liberties. If anyone thinks this wont effect Americans(negatively) at some point, I want to live in your dreamland. I understand the problems associated with illegal immigration but this isn't going to help or have the effect people want. People are pissed off and want retribution and that fine, but don't end up shooting yourself in the foot or caging yourself in.

o, so you think you can tell Heaven from Hell,
blue skies from pain.
Can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail?
A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
And did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?
Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage?