Arizona passes law to pimp-slap illegals immegrants

[timholian]

Tim, are you unaware of what history is? If so you should check it out. All current nations, at some point, belonged to someone else. At some point an empire came and conquered the land and called it their own. This is how things work. We immegrated here and militarily took over the land, and later took over or bought part of Mexico's land. That means it's ours. It's how they orriginally got Texas and it's how we took it from them. If they would like a rehash, they are more than welcome to try and take it back militarily.

Land is only "owned" by those who exercise power over it and have conquered it's inhabitants.

Secondly, we all came here as immegrants before America was a country. In 1924 the influx of immegrants was becoming too much for our system to handle, so we started putting quotas and restrictions on it. As of 1940, it was the law that anyone who came here from another country was required by federal law to have their papers on their person, and must submit them if questioned for any reason in regards to their immegration status.


We were all immegrants, and no one has a problem with immegrants that i've heard of, even on the farthest of the far right. Illegal immegration however is what the problem is. People living in the system and drawing from it, while not paying into it. This poses an economic problem.


I'm not even tottaly against the EU style model where we have no borders, as in where workers can move freely, thus enlarging the labor market and filling "the jobs americans won't do." However, just like in the EU, while you may move about freely and work where you please, it does not make you a legal citizen in America. You are allowed to work, but you are not a citizen and therefore not entitled to any benefits that come along with being a citizen. We need seasonal workers etc, and I feel mexico has the perfect market for that, but what pisses me off is obtaining welfare and other money intense benefits while not paying into the system.

Oh, so if it happened in the past its just fine? Trying to insult someones intelligence is an interesting form of deflection, but only makes you look like the fool. Are you familiar with correct spelling or a spell checker? See, it doesn't work as a rebuttal to a debate. Its funny that I find most of those leaning to the right use insults as a way of giving their argument more credibility. I also find it interesting that for those whom didn't support former president Bush were unamerican but the same rules don't apply to the current president. I am nether Democrat or Republican, I just see things the way I see them. I have not called your opinion wrong, or attacked your opinion but rather injected my view without such nonsense.

My last statement was one of refection, not of denigration. The sad thing is you can't tell when someone is semi-agreeing with you.

[sgreger1]

I apologize, I didn't mean it to be insulting in any way. It's just that for someone to not know how one becomes the occupier (and "owner) of a land is kind of beyond me. Spell checker? Nah, my spelling is so terrible it eats up to much time right clicking on every spelling error .

The point is that in the past it WAS that way, where it was okay to conquer foreign lands and claim them for your own. Do I support that in today's day and age? No. But at the time it's how business was done. And after about 300 years of us living here, we sure have utilized our space pretty efficiently and this land is ours. To say that Mexico is the rightful owner is erroneous. Like someone above said, how far back do you trace it? Does Russia really own Texas? The first humans are believed to Africans. Does Africa own America? This is why one cannot look at the issue from that perspective.


At some point in time, we conquered this land, filled it with people, and established a government. The government at one point had to set immigration limits because we were SO prosperous that everyone wanted to come here, but that was overloading our system. So now we have laws that require you at least register with the country before you come here, that way everything gets divided evenly, and we don't' have a bunch of people living off the grid, stealing other peoples identity's in order to come here and take free government money and our jobs. This is just common sense regulation.

Do we feel 'entitled". Yes, because we are entitled. We conquered this land and turned it into the greatest empire the world has ever known. From the sands of the desert and the hills of the countryside we drafted a space program, the interwebs, and a 14 trillion$ annual GDP. I feel like we are entitled to that, as we crafted this nation with our bare hands.


No one doesn't want immigrants, they just want them to register and come here legally. The smart thing to do would be to make it easier to come here legally, our current problem is that it is too hard to come here legally if you are just trying to make a better life for yourself.


And while I am right leaning, I am not part of the crowd who thought it was wrong to protest against Bush. As an independent/libertarian, I feel like the leadership hasn't really changed since the Clinton years, and possibly even before then (but I was too young to follow everything at that time).

[timholian]

To say that Mexico is the rightful owner is erroneous.

I never said that, hell I never said that American was wrong, I just referred to something to try and gain a little perspective.
I am not going to post in these "loaded" threads anymore, as Voltaire said "Opinion has caused more trouble on this little earth than plagues or earthquakes."

[sgreger1]

USA Today/Gallup poll conducted May 1-2 shows that 9 out of 10 Americans say it is moderately to extremely important to them for the federal government to take steps this year to secure the border against illegal immigration.
Similarly, 61 percent of Americans say they are very concerned that illegal immigrants are putting an unfair burden on U.S. schools, hospitals, and government services.
Gallup asked respondents whether it was extremely important, very important, moderately important, or not that important to them that the U.S. government take steps this year to control the border to stop the flow of illegal immigrants into the country. Only 10 percent said it was not that important. Eighty-nine percent said it was moderately to extremely important, with 42 percent saying it was extremely important, 26 percent saying it was very important, and 21 percent saying it was moderately important.



A report that found that illegal immigrants in the United States cost the federal government more than $10 billion a year — a sum it estimated would almost triple if they were given amnesty — has drawn criticism from immigration advocacy groups.
For its report, the Center for Immigration Studies, a Washington-based group that advocates tougher immigration policies, used Census Bureau figures to compare the revenue that illegal immigrants contribute through taxes with the cost of government services they use.
“Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household,” said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.



And now 12 other states are planning to file the SB 1070 immegration policy for their states too. http://www.alipac.us/ftopict-196989.html

[tom502]

Ship them to Canada.

[timholian]

Now you do realize that MOST of the illegal immigrants came here LEGALLY first then over stayed their visas. While I concur we should cinch up our border, that is not going to stop people coming here legally, only later to overstay their visa.

[sgreger1]

Now you do realize that MOST of the illegal immigrants came here LEGALLY first then over stayed their visas. While I concur we should cinch up our border, that is not going to stop people coming here legally, only later to overstay their visa.

Yah this is a big part of the problem. This arizona law helps curb that since theres now a chance they will be questioned and an officer will realize they have overstayed past their visa limit, but nothing will ever fully stop illegal immegration. We just need to cut it down from current levels and get a hold of it. Other countries seem to be able to handle the overstaying Visa problem, so I don't see why we can't. This just happens when you border a country who has completely let their people down. Obviousely they want to leave and look for a better life. Problem is that due to lax enforcement, along with the hard working poor comes the criminal cartels that also easily cross the border.

It's so bad in AZ now that the drug cartels are leaving trucks loaded with drugs on farmers property, and when the farmer moves it, the cartels come to his house, kill a family member, beat the shit out of everyone else and warn them to never move their drugs again, and that their property is now owned by the cartels.


2 terrorists have managed to get on a plane despite being on a no fly list just in the last 5 months, both of which tried to bomb us... drug cartels openly crossing the border and kidnapping hundreds of people in Arizona each year. What is all this talk of national security and cameras for, when the most obviouse problem is getting here from beyond our borders. Identifying who is coming and leaving seems like the most obvious solution to me, and it doesn't cost 1 trillion $ a year.

[danielan]

Now you do realize that MOST of the illegal immigrants came here LEGALLY first then over stayed their visas

Do you have a source for that? The last time I saw a stat on this it was around 40% overstayed their Visas and the remaining 60%+ had evaded inspection.

[timholian]

Most may have been a slight over statement but the sentiment still stands. And for those that are google impaired I give you a couple of links for the ease of your enjoyment. lol (just givin' ya shit)
http://www.numbersusa.com/content/ne...overstays.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5485917

Do you have a source for that? The last time I saw a stat on this it was around 40% overstayed their Visas and the remaining 60%+ had evaded inspection.

Do you have a source for that?

Here is a video some of you may find interesting.
http://www.megavideo.com/?v=FOEPZPTF

[sgreger1]

People become illegal immigrants in one of three ways: entering without authorization or inspection, staying beyond the authorized period after legal entry, or by violating the terms of legal entry:

Non-Immigrant Visa Overstayer” (4 to 5.5 million)
Border Crossing Card Violator” (250,000 to 500,000)
“Evaded the Immigration Inspectors and Border Patrol” (6 to 7 million)

1. ^ Edmonston and Smith, The New Americans: Economic, Demographic, and Fiscal Effects of Immigration. National Academy Press. page 21
2. ^ PewHispanic.org

Timholian was about right. I would say (since I don't ever believe official numbers) that it's probably roughly 50/50 between coming here illegally and just overstaying your visa. Keep in mind that lots of people overstay their visa, are cought, sent back home, and then cross the border illegally to return so there may be some double counting going on in the above numbers. For each 1 visa overstayed, that could potentially be 1 additional "evaded immegration inspectors and border patrol" if they got caught, deported, and then returned illegally (since they could no longer get a temporary visa)

[danielan]

When you are right, you don't need sources. I thought you knew that.

But here: http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/I...08/i9708p1.htm

Probably not where I saw it before, but probably close to the right dates.

My point was that I had never seen a number that confirmed that MOST were overstayers. Some numbers indicated that significant numbers were, but certainly not most. So I wanted to see the numbers.

If all of them were overstayers, it would indicate that we no longer had a problem controlling our borders. Trespassing is different then refusing to leave.

I also liked the video, especially the last 30 seconds.

Anyway, I personally care less about overstayers - they are usually white-collar and educated, moreover, by definition they cleared customs and aren't hauling drugs across the border.

Like I said before, if it was up to me I'd let in anyone with an advanced degree.

And PewHipanic.org seems a bit biased.

[sgreger1]

Yah I was thinking the same thing, but it's the reference wikipedia used so it's all I had.

Obviousely there have to be more coming in illegally than overstaying their visas for the reason you described above. People with a degree won't have a problem coming here in the first place, and do not need to get around immegration. It's the poor and the criminals that have trouble. The problem is that the drug cartels are better funded than AL Quaida and the taliban put together and twice as ruthless, and they are IN OUR COUNTRY, therefore making them (in my mind) the highest priority as far as security is concerned.

Someday someone will have to bite the bullet and piss offthe hispanics by dealing with the immegration problem.We already let the dems try amnesty. Reagan bought into the idea that if we give amnesty to whoever is here, and stop further illegal immegration by sealing the borders, than things will be fine. That failed miserably and he went on to regret that as one of his worst decisions. Amnesty doesn't work because it just rewards people who came here illegally.


I think we can't kick everyone out though due to the sheer logistics of forcibly removing 20 million people from 50 states. Absent a concentration/detention camp style roundup I don't see that happening.

[timholian]

Do you have a source for that? The last time I saw a stat on this it was around 40% overstayed their Visas and the remaining 60%+ had evaded inspection.

40% + 60%= 100%
40% + 60%+=???% LOL

When you are right, you don't need sources. I thought you knew that.

I wanna see a source that accounts for over 100%

[sgreger1]

I'd like to point out that guessing how many illegals are here is difficult and none of these numbers should be trusted. Numbers come out of the government, activist groups, anti-illegal activist groups, estimates from 3rd parties etc. Some say 10 million, some say 20 million. <-- this is a HUGE margin of error, so any calculation based on these two numbers would be statistically irrelevant (calculations such as "How much do illegals cost the HC industry).


We can make educated guesses, but these people are here illegally and scared to do things like fill out the census or do other on-the-grid type activities that may lead to their presence being accounted for. So the actual number of how many sneak over as opposed to overstayed their visas is hard to determine. We know how many overstayed their visas, but cannot be sure about how many are coming over. Some current estimates say 3 million a year immigrate here illegally, while other official numbers say illegal immigration (and the illegal community in general) has decreased steadily since 2006. So it's all speculation honestly.

[danielan]

I wanna see a source that accounts for over 100%

And we'll get to that just as soon as we figure out how 40% = MOST.

Center for Immigration Studies Congressional Testimony - 2006

"Estimates are that as many as 40 percent of illegal aliens are overstayers, who entered the country legally but did not leave when their time ran out, representing perhaps 4 million or more people."

"As many as", IMO, sets an upper bound not a lower bound.

Anything under this upper bound of 40% results in the remainder being 60%+

But admittedly, there are a variety of numbers, many yearly and not totals, floating around. I have not seen a > 50% number though. And you need > 50% to say "MOST". Or the statistics police show up and haul you away.