Aid ship attacked by Israeli soldiers

[Frosted]

"I am not an Israeli history expert or buff, so I admit I don't know all the aspects, but wasn't the war during the enforcing of Israel onto Palestine, and their rejection of it, and then the Israelis killing them all off?"

The Israelis were hardly "kiiling them all off". After the UN partition of Palestine, which merely recognized the situation on the ground, several Arab armies attacked and the Israelis fought them off with heavy casualties on both sides. The Arab armies were poorly led, even more poorly trained, and in general wildly inferior to the hastily organized Israeli defense forces. The civilian casualties caused directly by the Israelis were very light, a fraction of the vicious retribution of the arab armies, so were very far indeed from wholesale slaughter. And the Israelis did not force large numbers of arabs out of the country. They were encouraged to leave by arab propaganda and thousands did.

Some context regarding world opinion at the time of the partition is needed here. Hebrews had been in Palestine as long as the arabs, had in the early part of the 20th century carved out a functioning economic and cultural polity out of their little chunk of it, and after WWII had a great deal of sympathy from the Allied powers and many others due to the Holocaust. Additionally it was common knowledge at the time that most of the arab states had sided with the Nazis during the war so little sympathy was held for the fruits of their perfidies in this regard which included assasination, widespread collaboration with German forces in Africa, and occasional massacres of jewish settlers. So the small section of Palestine under jewish control enjoyed an underdog status that was well deserved and many in the west cheered them on as they fought off the far larger forces of arab countries that had been clear Nazi sympathizers.

The Israelis did not "steal" a chunk of Palestine--over time they bought various parcels from arab landowners who were in the main happy to sell what they considered to be worthless desert at the time--late 19th and early 20th century. When jewish immigrants, combined with their Palestinian born co-religionists, made the desert bloom with their labors with a subsequent increase in economic influence, the surrounding arab populations were jealous and covetous. There was a continuous low level war against jewish immigrants long before the war started and after the UN partition the arabs decided that all that developed productive land needed to be theirs. So they invaded and were soundly beaten once, twice, then thrice in real or threatened invasions right up to the Yom Kippur War of 1973. Egypt alone recognized that this lunacy should stop and signed a peace treaty with Israel which has held till today although it's been very shaky at times. The horrible mean "fascist" Israelis eventually returned the bulk of the Sinai desert they conquered in the Yom Kippur war at considerable cost and peril to themselves. Real fascists do not voluntarily return conquered lands.

It's a good idea to remember that the land area of Palestine, Jordan, Syria et.al has been contested bloodily for thousands of years and it looks to continue for a while. Israel is the only serious functioning democracy in the whole of the middle-east and the only one that, although nominally a jewish state, does not threaten, and massacre members of other religions in their own country. They are the only western style state in the region and are in about the toughest neighborhood on the planet for such a polity. Like any country they make mistakes that can be criticized but their founding is not one of them so the hatred and covetousness of the arabs about the land the Israelis "stole" is a product of Islamic religious propaganda, the actions self-interested rulers of surrounding countries, and outright historical revisionism. Tough neighborhood--tough jew bastards, mean even sometimes, and they have to be to keep from being annihilated. I'm not jewish, or religious at all, but I've admired the Israelis for a long time and this dust up in the Mediterranean won't change that.

Thank you Darwin - I didn't have the time to write all that but what you say is indeed true. I have to admire the Israelis security policy given the history and sheer violence presented to them over their history. I also admire their fighting especially when Egypt moved in. The Israeli army during the 1947-48 period was very poorly armed but their will and courage was astonishing. Sadly however, as there is in any war - with any army there were war crimes committed.

[timholian]

Politics are a bitch....
Religion is a bitch....
People fight for both and die for both

Is it wrong for me just not to care anymore if these folks just wanna keep murdering each other?
It won't stop until one side or the other is decimated.
The End
LOL

[Darwin]

Yes undoubtedly there a few war crimes committed but as in all things perspective is important. The Allies were far from angelic perfection in prosecuting the second world war but what they did in that regard was sub-microscopic in comparison to the vast depredations of the Axis powers. And so it is when comparing Israel to all of its neighbors. A democratic nation surrounded by extremely hostile neighbors must not only be pragmatic in its defense it should also be little influenced by the wimpy multi-cultural fantasies of feckless gullible westerners or the vicious and relentless self-serving propaganda trumpeted daily by despotic Islamic states.

[Frosted]

Yes undoubtedly there a few war crimes committed but as in all things perspective is important. The Allies were far from angelic perfection in prosecuting the second world war but what they did in that regard was sub-microscopic in comparison to the vast depredations of the Axis powers. And so it is when comparing Israel to all of its neighbors. A democratic nation surrounded by extremely hostile neighbors must not only be pragmatic in its defense it should also be little influenced by the wimpy multi-cultural fantasies of feckless gullible westerners or the vicious and relentless self-serving propaganda trumpeted daily by despotic Islamic states.

I could not have put that better or agree more.

[truthwolf1]

Yes undoubtedly there a few war crimes committed but as in all things perspective is important. The Allies were far from angelic perfection in prosecuting the second world war but what they did in that regard was sub-microscopic in comparison to the vast depredations of the Axis powers. And so it is when comparing Israel to all of its neighbors. A democratic nation surrounded by extremely hostile neighbors must not only be pragmatic in its defense it should also be little influenced by the wimpy multi-cultural fantasies of feckless gullible westerners or the vicious and relentless self-serving propaganda trumpeted daily by despotic Islamic states.

The death counts and imprisonment numbers dont add up for the that kind of statement. There are international laws for a purpose and Isreal continually disobeys them on all fronts. The world is catching on to their manipulation and blatant propaganda and they will be forced by their own patriots to change.

[tom502]

More flotillas are coming at the end of this week, or early next week, Turkey says they may send accompanying naval vessels.

[timholian]

More flotillas are coming at the end of this week, or early next week, Turkey says they may send accompanying naval vessels.

My problem with this is that Israel has already clearly warned that not only will they do it again but will use more force than the first boarding. This means that Turkey is basically asking for a major assault.

Sounds a little like the story of Moby Dick, they keep going after the whale.

[Robert81]

To my friend Robert: your post contained enough ignorance to make me consider the option of not replying to this silly drivel. Nevertheless, honor compels me, so let's address your more interesting statements one by one:

Q: "The Zionist Empire? It's a country trying to exist in a land full of hatred."
A: Wait, so the slaughter of innocent civilians is now necessary in order "to exist in a land of hatred?" What is a "land of hatred," anyway? Do you realize that, beside Egypt, Turkey is the only Muslim ally that Israel had? Do you realize that it has now alienated this rare ally, perhaps forever? Do you think well at all?

Q: "You can call it an Empire if you like, because it's clearly the most advanced country in the Middle East and it's less than a century old."
A: Once again, I will ask you to define your terms. What makes one an "advanced country?" For instance, the United Arab Emirates are not killing anyone, stealing anyone's land, or starving anyone to death. Does decency make them less "advanced?" I am confused; tell me more.

Q: "How are they a disgrace to the human race?"
A: You are not especially stupid, so this question is quite silly. Still, let me humor you. The Zionist Empire is a disgrace because:
(1) It is currently committing genocide.
(2) It is a racist nation.
(3) It is ruled by religious fanatics.
(4) It is, in an age of post-colonialism, trying to be a colonialist power.

Q: "Unless you live in Israel, experienced the holocaust you just sound like an imbecile."
A: This is directed at everyone else: in this statement, my friends, you see what I mean about the Zionists treating the Holocaust as a credit account. Apparently, people such as Robert believe that Israel is justified in anything and everything it does, simply on account of Hitler's actions 60 years ago. My US friends, please consider the following hypothetical situation: a group of rogue descendants of Native Americans decides to kill your children in retribution for 18th century US policies. Is such an action justified? If you answer "no," then you too are a decent human being.

Hah! I'm so happy honor compels you, and not your thick ignorant bias. Thanks for not addressing my points "one by one" like you said you would, but let me just argue with some of what you seem to disagree with.

1) "Once again, I will ask you to define your terms. What makes one an "advanced country?" For instance, the United Arab Emirates are not killing anyone, stealing anyone's land, or starving anyone to death. Does decency make them less "advanced?" I am confused; tell me more."

-Advanced in my opinion means most Technologically advanced, most Militarily advanced, and highest quality of life while under near constant attack.

2) "You are not especially stupid, so this question is quite silly. Still, let me humor you. The Zionist Empire is a disgrace because:
(1) It is currently committing genocide.
(2) It is a racist nation.
(3) It is ruled by religious fanatics.
(4) It is, in an age of post-colonialism, trying to be a colonialist power."

-Genocide has been commited on them since they were born. When lives are taken you fight fire with fire, else they would cease to exist. It's the way of the world. I'd like to see how you'd react. Maybe you wouldn't be here right now.

-You sound like a racist. If Israel was racist they would not allow millions of Muslims to live peacefully inside Israel. Why would they continually try to make peace, but get turned down because "Arab countries won't make peace until Israel isn't a state anymore." Do you read?

-Religious fanatics? You clearly have no idea on who or what Israel is. Maybe look up the regulations on some Muslim holy sites and see how those are run. Or read the Quran and tell me how it says it's OK to murder people of other religions. That sounds way more fanatical. Way to reply to my original statement on the Quran as well. You clearly have amazing selective reading or absolutely disgraceful comprehension.

-Again, if it was trying to be a colonialist power they would be a much larger country by now. As they are by far the most militarily and technologically advanced. How you don't comprehend that is inconceivable, but I'll just accept it as part of your bias and not stupidity.

3) "This is directed at everyone else: in this statement, my friends, you see what I mean about the Zionists treating the Holocaust as a credit account. Apparently, people such as Robert believe that Israel is justified in anything and everything it does, simply on account of Hitler's actions 60 years ago. My US friends, please consider the following hypothetical situation: a group of rogue descendants of Native Americans decides to kill your children in retribution for 18th century US policies. Is such an action justified? If you answer "no," then you too are a decent human being."

-I'm not trying treating anything as a credit account. But for you to make the statement "What Israel does would send chills down Hitlers spine" makes you sound like a racist schmuck. If you want to put words in my mouth so be it. But I believe Israel is justified in what it does because they deal with terrorists. Many Muslims are educated only on the Quran and terrorists. That creates fanatical cowards who kill who no compassion. Again, when life is taken into consideration you fight back. Israel doesn't fight fire with fire, they just fight back. It has nothing to do with Hitler (who the Muslims supported and helped to kill Jews by the way, you sound like you didn't know that.) You're hypothetical situation is absolutely lopsided and has absolutely no relation or meaning when compared to Israel. It just thickens the obvious, that you are a racist putz.

[tom502]

Noam Chomsky, a Jew, I guess he's a racist, says Israel is worse than apartied era South Africa.

[truthwolf1]

Noam Chomsky, a Jew, I guess he's a racist, says Israel is worse than apartied era South Africa.

Just one of many who are starting to question a very long and oppressive reign. There is a growing movement of opposition which hopefully will change things before the bombs do.

[Robert81]

Noam Chomsky, a Jew, I guess he's a racist, says Israel is worse than apartied era South Africa.

Chomsky has also stated his personal visions are Fairly traditional anarchist ones, and he has praised libertarian socialism. If you choose to listen to a man with those views that's fine but it holds a lot less water in my book.

[tom502]

I'm not a Chomsky fan, I was just pointing out that there are a lot of Jews, secular and Torah true, that oppose Zionist Israel.

[AllanH]

I agree with Tom here, many traditional jews consider zionism a blasphemous secular religion, contradicting judaism as true religion of God.

[LaZeR]

"this wasn't the Love Boat"

"Israel is guilty until proven guilty"

---Benjamin Netanyahu

[Robert81]

"this wasn't the Love Boat"--"Israel is guilty until proven guilty" ---Benjamin Netanyahu

You mean these quotes? Maybe you're too lazy to actually read an entire article.

"I think that the evidence that the lives of the Israeli seamen were in danger is crystal clear. *I regret to say that for many in the international community no evidence is needed. Israel is guilty until proven guilty. Once again Israel is told that it has a right to defend itself but it is condemned every time it exercises that right."

AND

"Our naval personnel ... were met with a vicious mob, they were stabbed they were clubbed, they were fired upon... they had to act in self defense. *They were members of an extremist group that ... today supports the terror organization called Hamas. They brought with them in advance knives, steel rods, other weapons. They chanted battle cries against the Jews. This wasn't a love boat, this was a hate boat."

Good game.