Never met a Jew? Jesus, where do you people come from? Sorry, more specifically, khrav, where the hell do you come from? Maybe if you knew even one or two you wouldn't make such inflammatory claims. This thread was bound to get ugly. And bsd777, what does choosing sides in this debate have to do with "darkness vs. light, capitalism vs. socialism"? Socialism? C'mon man, I'm so sick of hearing this word taken so far out of it's historical and literal context. Darkness? Lol. I think both sides of this debate have merit. That's why it's such an issue.
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Roo it's really pretty simple. Capitalism good. Government planned economy bad. Individual freedom good. Government control bad. Founding fathers good. Hugo Chavez bad. Western Judeo-Christian Civilization good. Islamo-fascism bad. The lines have formed it's easy to see. Which have you chosen? Do you want sharia law or a republic?Originally posted by Roo View PostComment
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Wow you need to get out and see the world. It's not so black and white once you're out there. And again, whatever Turkey has to do with socialism or some other centralised economy is beyond me. Having said all that, please understand that it is my intent to keep this civil, as you have done as well. I'm not attacking your viewpoint, just crying foul. Cheers brother.
Edit: another thing: since when is it Judeo-Christian civilization vs. Islamo-fascism? I have tried tirelessly on this forum to convince some of you that Islam does not equal "fascism" or extremism. If you don't believe me, nut up and go to an Islamic country. A moderate one. There are plenty to choose from. Turkey is a terrific example. Why perpetuate this thinking that it's Judeo-Christian vs Islam? If that's the case, then as an athiest, and as a lover of humanity and culture and history and diversity, I respectfully bow out.Comment
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Does India, Chile, Peru, Mexico, Canada, Coast Rica or Venezuela count for travel? Turkey used to be moderate, run by a secular military. you may have noticed a change recently. the military has lost influence and the islamists have gained. they sponsored the "love boat". atheists and agnostics are welcome in our democratic republic, founded on Judeo-Christan values. the same cannot be said in the calphate. time to learn which side your bread is buttered on.Originally posted by Roo View PostComment
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Oh and the Turks are now friends with Chavez, who's friendly with the Iranian mullahs. Interesting how that works. Isn't it?Comment
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I'm little confused here, wasn't Israel founded by illegal immigrants, mostly communists and socialists to destroy free market economy run by local christians and muslims? Communist Soviet Union and socialist France were the biggest supporters. Kibbutz system is the same as kolhoz in SU, kulaks were palestinian farmers though.Comment
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There wasn't any weapons on the Turkish aid ship. Israel attacked it for no reason.
I'm not biased toward anything. It just seems wrong that an aid ship was attacked with military force. And now the attackers(Israel) are whining that they were attacked by the Turkish aid ship people first.
It's kind of funny that Israel actually said that.Comment
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The ship wasn't attacked.Originally posted by Treath View Post
It was boarded by the soldiers as they were going to check out the boat and the soldiers were attacked. The boats occupants tried to take the firearms off the soldiers.
I'd really appreciate some intelligent comments backing up the occupants of the boat but I've seen little of this.
At least it's been really civil up to now but I'm getting sick of people participating and not reading the thread or even bothering to listen to the news without using their BS detector.
In fact I find it alarming in a big way when someone writes something like this - it's so way off the mark right from the word 'go' that it's not even on the same planet.
Sorry - I think I'm going to have to bow out of this thread before I become rude. We'll see.Comment
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Lol @ this thread.
Everyone here has decent and valid viewpoints, this is a bad situation for all parties involved.
First i'd like to say to all you armchair generals out there who are saying what the Israeli's "should" have done: WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD.
People have this idea that when the military does something, every soldier is trained for everything and should also execute everything perfectly. This is just not reality. Frosted has made this point over and over again.
Look at what happened:
Protesters decide to go start some shit, knowing this will end up in the news
Israel boards ship in international waters. Knowing how the media hates them they acted incredibly stupid, something they are making a habit nowadays.
Protestors try taking weapons from soldiers. This =you get shot. As a soldier, I don't care what the scenario is, or what the rules are, if I come armed into a situation and someone tries to take my weapon from me than they are getting shot and i'll deal with it in court later. If you pretend you wouldn't do the same thing, you've never held a weapon before.
Was Israel right here? Lol no of course not, they should have known this would play out the way it did. They seem to be having a consistent re-occuring brainfart every time they have to make a decision lately. I wrote off most of what they did as "shit happens, isolated incident", but it is becoming more frequent.
That being said, all you Israel haters here are making some pretty bold claims. Talking about how what the jews are doing is worse than Hitler? Are you shitting me? Let me know when Israel starts buying carbon credits to offset all the smoke coming out of the chimneys when they burn 6 million people after rounding up an entire race into forced labor camps. What israel is doing here is routine all over the world. They are not doing anything worse than what the US does, or what the Muslims do etc.
Bottom line: Israel is being stupid, they know the media, the muslims etc are all out to get them and await them to mess up. With this in mind, doing shit like shooting protestors after boarding a ship in international waters is probably a bad idea. Are they Hitler? Rofl, you guys crack me up. Open your windows and stick your head out, the real world does not function like armchair generals on the internet think it should. People all hate each other, they hate each other for race, for religion, for money and for social status, and humans have spent most of our existence waring amongst ourselves, with small periods of peace at short and infrequent intervals.
The spin machine is on and the infowar is escalating, the west is trying to convince you that Iran needs to be next in line to get f*cked by the great american bald eagle, and the muslims and commies are trying to convince everyone that Israel is really behind this and they rule the world.
People, if Israel was an empire or the secret puppet-masters of the world, they would not be having these problems, they are just one of many groups on planet earth trying to make their way. In a humans life, making your way often times involves doing bad and evil things it's how God made us or how we evolved. Deal with it.Comment
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Israel claimed that they found weapons inside of the ship. They did. If you classiy breadknives and brushes as weapons, that is.Comment
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All the IDF wanted to do was have a look - obviously - because they knew the ship was trying to run the blockade. This is or should have been a routine inspection.Originally posted by NorwegianKid View Post
So if a police officer wants to look in your car because he has reason to suspect you might be carrying something that you shouldn't do you start crying about it when he doesn't find anything? Would you start fighting with an armed police officer, try to take his gun off him or beat him with a baseball bat - try to stab him before he even had a chance to look? Do you abide by the rules of your own country? When you go to someone elses country (If you've ever been out of your own country) do you abide by their rules or do you make your own up as you go along and bleat when they f*** you up the ass?
If you're on a boat and a customs officer wanted to board and you knew you had nothing to hide - would you beat the hell out of him?
The IDF were attacked with baseball bats iron bars knives etc. Don't know about you - but I could easily kill someone with one of those. People are only crying like babies because it was Israel.Comment
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This video is important to the argument. Please watch it. This proves that the ships captain was informed that the Israelis wanted to board and inspect the ship.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3f9_1275538455Comment
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Here is the International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994
SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT
Neutral merchant vessels
67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:
(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082...25641f002d49ceComment
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There is however an extremely strong argument against the excessiveness of the blockade which sadly I haven't heard from anybody yet so I'll say it in the interests of intelligent and rational debate.
Section II is where Israels problems lie. The area up for debate is 102 high lighted in red. No matter what you think of the blockade, the IDF have every right to search ships whilst a blockade is declared. It is up to the UN and international community to change this. Naturally if you try to do this as an individual you'll probably end up getting killed.
Blockade
93. A blockade shall be declared and notified to all belligerents and neutral States.
94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.
95. A blockade must be effective. The question whether a blockade is effective is a question of fact.
96. The force maintaining the blockade may be stationed at a distance determined by military requirements.
97. A blockade may be enforced and maintained by a combination of legitimate methods and means of warfare provided this combination does not result in acts inconsistent with the rules set out in this document.
98. Merchant vessels believed on reasonable grounds to be breaching a blockade may be captured. Merchant vessels which, after prior warning, clearly resist capture may be attacked.
99. A blockade must not bar access to the ports and coasts of neutral States.
100. A blockade must be applied impartially to the vessels of all States.
101. The cessation, temporary lifting, re-establishment, extension or other alteration of a blockade must be declared and notified as in paragraphs 93 and 94.
102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:
(a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.
103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:
(a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
(b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.
104. The blockading belligerent shall allow the passage of medical supplies for the civilian population or for the wounded and sick members of armed forces, subject to the right to prescribe technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted.
103 is not in question as we are already aware that Israel has provided for the passage of these goods through the appropriate points of entryComment
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