Aid ship attacked by Israeli soldiers

[Frosted]

Since the first century CE most Jews have lived in exile, although there has been a constant presence of Jews in the Land of Israel. Zionists have always wanted to return to that land and consider anybody living outside of the land to be in exile.
Zionism is a complex movement as it is not what you might think it is. There are various different forms of zionism and philosophies within the nationalist movement which have even been supported by Arabs, Persians and Kurds. On the whole Zionists accept that Arabs should have a state and that Arabs and Jews should live peacefully and trade - but it's rather difficult to do when you're constantly getting rocketed and bombed.

Other Zionists even say that it is against Jewish law for a Jewish state to exist. So - not every Jew wants it and not every Jew is a Zionist.

What I'm trying to say here is that it's an immensely complex topic for us 'foreigners' to talk about on a forum. Given my experience of Northern Ireland which the rest of the world finds incomprehensible and is even very complex for the natives to understand, I feel that we would actually have to live in Israel for us to fully understand the complicated nature of what we're talking about - and please don't misunderstand me - I'm only trying to understand it myself, but I can't misunderstand what I saw in the videos.

[sgreger1]

My family visits Israel often and I don't think any of them would describe it as some oppressive nazi regime hellbent on conquering the world. My comrades who have deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan would quickly make those comments about Muslims however. I guess it's all about which side appeals to you or something.

[bottledwater]

And the Islamists hate the Hindus in India because they support Israel too? What about the Christians in the Philippines? They support Israel too? Or Van Gogh?

Shit gets broken and people die during war but it doesn't mean the Israelis are at fault.

i didnt mean to imply that the israelis are always at fault. i said both sides are at fault, in this specific case it is the israelis fault. give me 2 hours and i can probably find hundreds of incidents where the palestinians were at fault, and the same goes for the israelis. you said it yourself, shit gets broken and people die during war, and the point here is that neither side is a saint, they are both at fault.

[sgreger1]

i didnt mean to imply that the israelis are always at fault. i said both sides are at fault, in this specific case it is the israelis fault. give me 2 hours and i can probably find hundreds of incidents where the palestinians were at fault, and the same goes for the israelis. you said it yourself, shit gets broken and people die during war, and the point here is that neither side is a saint, they are both at fault.

Thanks bottledwater, this is what I was trying to say from the beginning, that theres two sides to each story and two sides to each conflict. No one person is magically to blame for everything. They have been going at it forever, we cannot stop this, and frankly I don't know if there will ever be peace in that region. They are two completely opposing religions (ironically from the same roots) that will not stop until the other is eliminated. Given how strong and dedicated they both are, I don't think we'll see an end to it anytime soon.

The jews can lose 6 million to the furnace in Germany and still show up and tow the line to fight, and every major power in history has tried to conquer the middle eastern muslims but given nothing but dirt, sandals, and cheap weapons they manage to stave them off. When you are fighting for what you think god wants, there is no defeat. Even in death you achieve victory.

[tom502]

[truthwolf1]

Sorry, I guess I shouldn't have called you a moron. It's a reflex reaction to substance-less conspiracy theory. Speaking of substance, what of the "neo-cons" substance do you take issue with? What exactly does neo-con mean? Is that code for Zionist, hook nose bankers?

Some how I suspect Israeli "spies" might be a little more discrete. Bibi said support for Israel increased after 9/11? Untrue, shocking? Proof of a conspiracy? What's your point?

Apology accepted. I should not of called you a Neocon but your argumentive style reminds me of various pre-Obama FOX news personalities with the Israel can do no wrong view.
What we completely disagree with is how we look at substance and motives of people.

What of the neo-cons substance do I take issue with?

More then anything else airport security. It is usually when I am moving with the cattle with my shoes off and listening to a 10 dollar and hour power trip employee yelling at my 2 year old when blood boils.
This is where I usually reflect on the "neo-cons" substance. The questionable 911 event, wars based on lies (with more time another one in Iran), close ties with israel lobby who help push these wars, ties with saudis who get to pull their people out of the country after a big event, ties with pakistanis who provide money/support for saudi hijackers, patriot act (real big issue because citizens are not terrorists), general population brainwash of giving up liberty for security, homeland securty in my snus package, torture, guantanamo gulag, constant fear of the boogieman "Osama", wide open borders but still selling the lie, the show 24 because parents are neocons, abu ghraib, military industrial profits and political ties, the 6,531 USA casualties and 40,000 wounded, the coming gulf war syndrome deaths from DU ammunition, the collateral damage of "Hagis" which will breed extreme future blowback, vets doing more then 3 tours and then coming back into law enforcement to kick ass, and everything here so brilliantly played by those dumb "NeoCons", that it has continued with the Obama Administration to full effect.

You know just things like that which I have issue with.

[daruckis]

And the Islamists hate the Hindus in India because they support Israel too? What about the Christians in the Philippines? They support Israel too? Or Van Gogh?

Shit gets broken and people die during war but it doesn't mean the Israelis are at fault.

have you seriously been here since november? i have never noted your presence until this week when i decided i hate you.

[sgreger1]

Apology accepted. I should not of called you a Neocon but your argumentive style reminds me of various pre-Obama FOX news personalities with the Israel can do no wrong view.
What we completely disagree with is how we look at substance and motives of people.

What of the neo-cons substance do I take issue with?

More then anything else airport security. It is usually when I am moving with the cattle with my shoes off and listening to a 10 dollar and hour power trip employee yelling at my 2 year old when blood boils.
This is where I usually reflect on the "neo-cons" substance. The questionable 911 event, wars based on lies (with more time another one in Iran), close ties with israel lobby who help push these wars, ties with saudis who get to pull their people out of the country after a big event, ties with pakistanis who provide money/support for saudi hijackers, patriot act (real big issue because citizens are not terrorists), general population brainwash of giving up liberty for security, homeland securty in my snus package, torture, guantanamo gulag, constant fear of the boogieman "Osama", wide open borders but still selling the lie, the show 24 because parents are neocons, abu ghraib, military industrial profits and political ties, the 6,531 USA casualties and 40,000 wounded, the coming gulf war syndrome deaths from DU ammunition, the collateral damage of "Hagis" which will breed extreme future blowback, vets doing more then 3 tours and then coming back into law enforcement to kick ass, and everything here so brilliantly played by those dumb "NeoCons", that it has continued with the Obama Administration to full effect.

You know just things like that which I have issue with.

I totally agree, but the funniest part was when all those neocon democrats voted for every single thing you just listed, especially when they had the majority. See how name calling doesn't work? It's no neocons, it's this current regime/one part system that is the problem, this has nothing to do about left right, conservative or neoconservative.

Also i'd like to point out that when you say " patriot act (real big issue because citizens are not terrorists), " you are incorrect, as every single terrorist in the past 2 years was in fact an American citizen. However I don't want to give up any resemblance of privacy I may have left just so that they can stop some guy from filling a bucket with gasoline and fireworks in time square. But you know what? They've been doing this since Clinton authorized it in the 90's and echelon etc, this is nothing new. We need to stop all those things you listed, but by thinking that neocons did it, we will never get in the right direction. Both partys nearly unanymousely support every single thing you listed and voted for it each time, whenthe reps were in control, and again when the dems were in control. That doesn't sound like a neocon problem to me.

[Frosted]

Sorry to bump this - but this was very interesting source http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/science_a...t/10276393.stm

Genetic study sheds light on Jewish diaspora

Most contemporary Jews descended from ancient residents of the Levant Scientists have shed light on Jewish history with an in-depth genetic study.

The researchers analysed genetic samples from 14 Jewish communities across the world and compared them with those from 69 non-Jewish populations.

Their study, published in Nature, revealed that most Jewish populations were "genetically closer" to each other than to their non-Jewish neighbours.

It also revealed genetic ties between globally dispersed Jews and non-Jewish populations in the Middle East.

This fits with the idea that most contemporary Jews descended from ancient Hebrew and Israelite residents in the Middle Eastern region known as the Levant. It provides a trace of the Jewish diaspora.

Doron Behar from Rambam Health Care Campus in Haifa, Israel, led an international team of scientists in the study. He described it as a form of "genetic archaeology".

"It seems that most Jewish populations and therefore most Jewish individuals are closer to each other [at the genetic level], and closer to the Middle Eastern populations, than to their traditional host population in the diaspora," he explained.

There were exceptions to this key finding, though, as Dr Behar explained.

He said that his research revealed that Ethiopian and Indian Jewish communities were genetically closer to their neighbouring non-Jewish populations.

This may be partly because a greater degree of genetic, religious and cultural crossover took place when the Jewish communities in these areas became established.

Novel analytical techniques allowed the scientists to examine the genetic samples they took in unprecedented detail.

Dr Behar says the data from this study could aid future research into the genetic basis of diseases that are more prevalent in the Jewish population

[sgreger1]

Sorry to bump this - but this was very interesting source http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/science_a...t/10276393.stm

Genetic study sheds light on Jewish diaspora

Most contemporary Jews descended from ancient residents of the Levant Scientists have shed light on Jewish history with an in-depth genetic study.

The researchers analysed genetic samples from 14 Jewish communities across the world and compared them with those from 69 non-Jewish populations.

Their study, published in Nature, revealed that most Jewish populations were "genetically closer" to each other than to their non-Jewish neighbours.

It also revealed genetic ties between globally dispersed Jews and non-Jewish populations in the Middle East.

This fits with the idea that most contemporary Jews descended from ancient Hebrew and Israelite residents in the Middle Eastern region known as the Levant. It provides a trace of the Jewish diaspora.

Doron Behar from Rambam Health Care Campus in Haifa, Israel, led an international team of scientists in the study. He described it as a form of "genetic archaeology".

"It seems that most Jewish populations and therefore most Jewish individuals are closer to each other [at the genetic level], and closer to the Middle Eastern populations, than to their traditional host population in the diaspora," he explained.

There were exceptions to this key finding, though, as Dr Behar explained.

He said that his research revealed that Ethiopian and Indian Jewish communities were genetically closer to their neighbouring non-Jewish populations.

This may be partly because a greater degree of genetic, religious and cultural crossover took place when the Jewish communities in these areas became established.

Novel analytical techniques allowed the scientists to examine the genetic samples they took in unprecedented detail.

Dr Behar says the data from this study could aid future research into the genetic basis of diseases that are more prevalent in the Jewish population

Translation = Jews are in fact Jews, not shapeshifters.

[Frosted]

I'd never heard of the Levant but looking it up it's right bang where Israel is today.

[sgreger1]

Although I agree this is true a large part of the world does not see it that way.

The economist:

A band of 30 men, masked and armed, recently assaulted a UN camp for the young that had been set up on Gaza’s beaches. Hamas’s security forces, who guard the coastline and pride themselves on the security they provide for Gaza’s citizens, let them pass.

In one corner is the UN’s Relief and Works Agency, known as UNRWA (which is mainly funded by the US), with a mandate to provide for the needs of the 80% of Gaza’s 1.5m people who are refugees (or their descendants) turfed out of Palestine after the war that followed Israel’s founding in 1948. In the other stands Hamas, which, since it won a general election in 2006, has been turning Gaza into something close to a one-party state.

The UN has been the strip’s only significant link with the outside world since Israel and Egypt locked the gates at both ends of it.


Last year the UN’s summer beach-camps tempted 200,000 children away from the mosques where Islamists run rival summer camps that offer recitation of the Koran and guerrilla training. This year the UN camps looked set to attract even more.
So Hamas zealots have tried to stymie them. After Friday prayers, its people distributed a communiqué warning Mr Ging (who runs the beach camps) against spreading “moral corruption”. (Because feeding refugees is moral corruptions

The thugs who torched the UN camp left him three bullets.

The same security forces who let the thugs pass then blocked UN supporters when they tried to protest. Some Hamas people have falsely claimed that the UN lets boys and girls play together. “They even let pubescent girls swim in the sea,” moans the culture minister. UN people fear that numbers at their camps may fall thanks to Hamas’s intimidation. Parents have to consider the risk that their children may lose their ticket to the hereafter. (Edit: Oh the horror, the evil west allows women to swim in the sea, murder more innocents to protest this my islamic brothers)


Also, Obama just gave $400 million in aid to the palestinians, ontop of the $900 million he gave in a one lump sum last year. $1.3 billion should help feed the 1.5 million people there, I would assume.




Many of you are falling for the propaganda machine that makes it seem like Israel is over there trying to commit genocide, when both countries bordering them have blockades on Gaza (egypt relaizes the Hamas threat too, you know). Yet Israel gets all the blame. If anyone is starving it is because of terrorists and religious fanatics. Put blame where blame is due, don't take the easy way out and just blame the jew.

[Frosted]

Love your signature Sgreger lol

[bsd777]

have you seriously been here since november? i have never noted your presence until this week when i decided i hate you.

Yah, on occasion. I asked a few snus questions while trying hard to ignore some of the very flawed logic in other threads (one in particular about "global warming" really took restraint)

Anyway, thanks for the warm welcome. What can I say? Guess I'm a bit of a shit repellent.

[Roo]

A shit repellent. LOL. bsd777, I too hated you at first. But for what it's worth, I like you now. You're might hate the comparison, but you are the extreme right's answer to Judge Faust, and I like the curmudgeonly bastard. Something about the combination of political extremism, apparent misanthropy, dickhead delivery, and, to borrow a phrase from daruckis, an avatar that means business, is appealing to me. Take that as you will, but it was intended as a compliment. At least you know you're an asshole, you've said it yourself. I'm just waiting for a semblance of good humor. I know you have it in you. Cheers.