Does tolerance, of the intolerant, promote tolerance?

[daruckis]

sounds like snuson everytime we deviate from the topic of snus.

[bsd777]

Also, depending on what you're meaning by intolerant, I might well fall under your definition. If you mean I don't think abortions should be outlawed for everyone simply because they go against your religion, then yes, I'm an intolerant liberal. As I see it though, those legislators who push laws like that are just as intolerant of everyone who isn't Christian, by trying to force everyone else to live by their beliefs.

Intolerance is what it is. Lacking tolerance for something, someone, beleifs or customs. Religion has little to do with the discussion, unless you are intolerant of a religion or religions. or believe a religion or religions are intolerant.

I believe abortion is taboo in most, if not all, religions. Does that even matter, does one have to be religious to believe in the sanctity of life?

Modern Western civilization generally treats all individuals equally. I believe this is one, of many, reasons western civilization is exceptional, or superior to others. Some, more enlightened than myself, object to my statement and contend that all societies should be treated with equal respect and tolerance. I want to know if those who feel this way, think they are more tolerant than I. Specifically with regard to societies who relegate a certain segment of the population to second class status. Is it ok to be intolerant of that society? Is it ok to say our system, which affords more freedom to all, is superior? If not, what about tolerance for those that are not tolerated in this other society? Who is actually tolerant?

[shikitohno]

You don't have to be religious to be opposed to abortion, but I rarely hear anyone come out with a justification that doesn't go along the lines of "religion x forbids it, so it's wrong." when people try to explain why they oppose it. On the other hand, most arguments for it that I've heard have a secular basis. Of course, one could argue that this is intolerant to all religions to hoist a secular value upon them. As the saying goes, "you can't please all the people, all the time." Someone's always going to be pissed off and feel they've been discriminated against. And I only ask what you mean by intolerance because some people have really broad definitions of it. I've been called intolerant at work for not celebrating Christmas by Christian customers, despite the fact that I in no way try to prevent them from celebrating. Besides, how does one decide which culture is better than the rest? By technological advancement? By wealth? By happiness? You'll probably get different answers about which culture is best depending on the criteria you use to judge them. You could make an argument that trying to change societies where women are second-class citizens is intolerant to that people's culture. You could also make an argument that tolerating such a culture is intolerant to the women of it. I let people do whatever they want as long as they let me do the same, so long as neither of us disturbs the other with what they choose to do. You want to pray in your garden every day and you live next to me? Fine. Just don't do it so loudly that it becomes a nuisance to me. You want to be a nudist, I don't care. Just don't come outside where I can see you naked. Tolerance doesn't need to be limitless, in most instances people just need to compromise, or else they'll go crazy.

[Jwalker]

"The funny thing is that Christians, Muslims, and Jews have always been at one another. They are the Abrahamic religions, and all three are really the same religion, they just interpret the writings differently and follow different prophets from the writings. They are the three primary monotheistic world religions, although some Christianity borders on Dualism. They became world religions through force and fear."

No they're not the same. What little I know of Judaism is that they don't believe in hell and they don't believe Jesus is the son of God and believe in good works. Muslims believe that Jews and Christians perverted the bible and that you get to heaven through good works. Christianity is different in that we believe God was born as a man was fully God and fully human died for our sins and rose from the dead. If you believe that Jesus died for you and accept that you to heaven. If you don't then you go to hell. That Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the light no one comes to the father except through me". After you become a christian you should become more like Jesus. You'll still do bad stuff and it might not look like you've changed. Not everyone who says they're a christian is that's between them and God in the end.

Imo the word intolerance is overused as a synonym for lacking approval and not agreeing with people. You don't have to approve of everything people do to be tolerant. You to tolerate things you find distasteful like someone cheating on their spouse, drinking in huge excess. Besides were almost all(I honestly think some people aren't) intolerant of tons of things that we rightfully should be like pedophiles, murder (in most cases), child abuse, exposing yourself around children, etc.

[danielan]

You'll probably get different answers about which culture is best depending on the criteria you use to judge them.

We interrupt this thread for a funny, kind of relevant, quote from Douglas Adams:

“Man has always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much...the wheel, New York, wars and so on...while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man...for precisely the same reason.”

[tom502]

Judaism isn't really intolerant, religiously, because they don't preach their way is the only one true way, like the Christians and Muslims do. Muslims and Christians want everyone to convert to their way, or they are either damned to hell, or attacked on Earth. It's big long hassle to convert to Judaism, meaning, you have to really want to, and go through some hoops to do so, if you do it "legally" through a synagogue.

[PipenSnus]

IMO, the unexamined part of this issue is self-delusion. Everybody wants to see himself/herself as being tolerant and fair-minded, but in actual fact, most people have at least a few biases. It is possible to rid oneself of these, but it takes a lot of work. It also takes the mental ability and willingness to step outside one's cultural and personal view, and try to see things from someone else's perspective.

[tom502]

Well, tolerance does not mean you have to approve or accept it, just that you tolerate it.

[NonServiam]

"The funny thing is that Christians, Muslims, and Jews have always been at one another. They are the Abrahamic religions, and all three are really the same religion, they just interpret the writings differently and follow different prophets from the writings. They are the three primary monotheistic world religions, although some Christianity borders on Dualism. They became world religions through force and fear."

No they're not the same. What little I know of Judaism is that they don't believe in hell and they don't believe Jesus is the son of God and believe in good works. Muslims believe that Jews and Christians perverted the bible and that you get to heaven through good works. Christianity is different in that we believe God was born as a man was fully God and fully human died for our sins and rose from the dead. If you believe that Jesus died for you and accept that you to heaven. If you don't then you go to hell. That Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the light no one comes to the father except through me". After you become a christian you should become more like Jesus. You'll still do bad stuff and it might not look like you've changed. Not everyone who says they're a christian is that's between them and God in the end.

Imo the word intolerance is overused as a synonym for lacking approval and not agreeing with people. You don't have to approve of everything people do to be tolerant. You to tolerate things you find distasteful like someone cheating on their spouse, drinking in huge excess. Besides were almost all(I honestly think some people aren't) intolerant of tons of things that we rightfully should be like pedophiles, murder (in most cases), child abuse, exposing yourself around children, etc.

Perhaps me using the word "same" mislead you. They are "similar" in that they all share the same roots. I'll use an analogy. There were once three brothers, each looked and expressed themselves differently. Looking at all three of them together you could differentiate them. However, they all three shared the same parents, upbringing, and instilled values. You are correct, Judaism does not believe in a hell because Judaism is in all actuality a true monotheistic religion. Judaism believes in the existence of the "devil", but does not see him as in a struggle with God. Rather Judaism sees Satan as employed by God on his behalf to test mortals.

Let me stress to you that I am not arguing, nor will I engage in a religious argument. Although, I do enjoy a friendly intellectual debate. I did however feel it was etiquette that I address your response. There is not enough room in this forum for religious argument. I will not sway you, you will not sway me. This is the exact reason why holy wars will continue until there is no more blood to shed.

[lxskllr]

I keep marveling over the fact that some people think SnusOn has a liberal slant :^D

As far as religion goes, they can all go to hell. The belief in sky fairies has been holding us back for centuries, and caused a large percentage of our problems. It'll be a good day when religion's finally been eradicated.

[shikitohno]

Yeah lxskllr, I'm still trying to figure that out myself. There seem to only be a handful of liberal posters on here (and then Judge Faust in a category of his own), but I've seen several threads recently talking about this liberal majority on SnusOn that I've apparently been missing for the last year. Seems pretty damn conservative to me.

[NonServiam]

I've only been here for a short time compared to the rest of you, but I'm sure this forum is a potpourri of people. But, just from what I've seen, I'd say that most of the posters on here seem to have more in common with Libertarianism when it comes to world views. Perhaps they're getting this Liberal perception because some of us on here are strong supporters of secularism, myself included. But just because you are a secularist does not make you liberal by any means.

[tom502]

One area this really stands out, is on racism, and racist groups. Whenever there is a legal organized Klan rally, the so-called "anti-racists", and "anti-facists", are a mob of often masked criminals that start fights with the police, break property, try to physically attack the speakers, the so called "antis" are more nazi and bigoted than the klan and nazis, they reek of arrogance, bigotry, elitism, and anti-freedom, as well as having a racial bias themselves, as they only seek to attack white racialists, yet whenever the Farrakhan Nation of Islam, or Black Panthers have an event, they never show up and try to attack them. I don't agree with racism, but I do agree with freedom of speech, and orderly lawful assembly, and in these cases, I cannot side with the so-called "antis".

[Roo]

I've always wanted to ambush a Klan rally with rotten, stinking tomatos. The putrid juices of hundreds of rank tomatos splashed across the white robes of the Klan, and their ensuing anger and embarrassment, would be a beautiful sight to behold.

[tom502]

Would you wanna do that to a Black Panther Party rally too?