Arizona’s ‘Papers Please’ Law

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  • timholian
    Member
    • Apr 2010
    • 1448

    Arizona’s ‘Papers Please’ Law

    Arizona’s ‘Papers Please’ Law

    It's not just a mirror image of federal law, and allows some profiling. But, in theory, no more than what the courts permit already.

    Summary We’ll leave it to others to decide whether Arizona’s new immigration law is a good thing or a bad thing — but here we try to straighten out some of the confusing factual claims. First, a quick summary. Contrary to what the law’s defenders often say, the new statute does more than merely mirror federal law. For example:
    • It’s a state crime for an illegal immigrant to apply for a job, or to solicit work publicly.
    • The law also makes it a misdemeanor for a citizen driving a vehicle to stop to hire anyone if that "impedes" traffic.
    • Citizens will be able to sue officials or agencies whose policies interfere with vigorous enforcement of federal immigration law.

    On the much-discussed issue of whether the law permits or encourages "racial profiling," we find:
    • The amended law allows police to consider "race, color or national origin" when deciding whether to ask somebody for proof of citizenship, but only to the extent already deemed constitutional by the courts.
    • It remains to be seen how police will interpret the law’s anti-profiling language in practice. State officials tell us they have yet to work out what factors police should be trained to use to establish "reasonable suspicion" of illegal status.
    • Federal officials are open to criticisms similar to some of those being made about Arizona’s law. A federal manual for training state and local officials says they may consider whether a person has a "thick foreign accent" or looks "out of place" when deciding whether to ask them about their immigration status.

    Finally, we examine a widely circulated chain e-mail written by an Arizona state senator who supports the law, and find her claims to be misleading. The violence against ranchers that she describes is real, but it is the work of Mexican crime cartels, not illegal immigrants.
    ===============================
    I posted the summary just in case someone didn't want to read the entire article. I found this to be one of the best pieces on the new AZ law. It sounds to me it will be over turned because it has basically created its own foreign policy and thats a no no.
    I dunno... the law makes waaaay more sense to me now, so I suggest reading the whole article.
  • sgreger1
    Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 9451

    #2
    Originally posted by timholian View Post
    Arizona’s ‘Papers Please’ Law

    It's not just a mirror image of federal law, and allows some profiling. But, in theory, no more than what the courts permit already.

    Summary We’ll leave it to others to decide whether Arizona’s new immigration law is a good thing or a bad thing — but here we try to straighten out some of the confusing factual claims. First, a quick summary. Contrary to what the law’s defenders often say, the new statute does more than merely mirror federal law. For example:
    • It’s a state crime for an illegal immigrant to apply for a job, or to solicit work publicly.
    • The law also makes it a misdemeanor for a citizen driving a vehicle to stop to hire anyone if that "impedes" traffic.
    • Citizens will be able to sue officials or agencies whose policies interfere with vigorous enforcement of federal immigration law.

    On the much-discussed issue of whether the law permits or encourages "racial profiling," we find:
    • The amended law allows police to consider "race, color or national origin" when deciding whether to ask somebody for proof of citizenship, but only to the extent already deemed constitutional by the courts.
    • It remains to be seen how police will interpret the law’s anti-profiling language in practice. State officials tell us they have yet to work out what factors police should be trained to use to establish "reasonable suspicion" of illegal status.
    • Federal officials are open to criticisms similar to some of those being made about Arizona’s law. A federal manual for training state and local officials says they may consider whether a person has a "thick foreign accent" or looks "out of place" when deciding whether to ask them about their immigration status.

    Finally, we examine a widely circulated chain e-mail written by an Arizona state senator who supports the law, and find her claims to be misleading. The violence against ranchers that she describes is real, but it is the work of Mexican crime cartels, not illegal immigrants.
    ===============================
    I posted the summary just in case someone didn't want to read the entire article. I found this to be one of the best pieces on the new AZ law. It sounds to me it will be over turned because it has basically created its own foreign policy and thats a no no.
    I dunno... the law makes waaaay more sense to me now, so I suggest reading the whole article.


    1)It’s a state crime for an illegal immigrant to apply for a job, or to solicit work publicly.
    2)The law also makes it a misdemeanor for a citizen driving a vehicle to stop to hire anyone if that "impedes" traffic.
    3)Citizens will be able to sue officials or agencies whose policies interfere with vigorous enforcement of federal immigration law.




    HOLY SHIT THAT'S LIKE A HAT TRICK! Outstanding, right? It toughens up on employers like everyone claimed they wanted too, right? So is that bad?



    "The amended law allows police to consider "race, color or national origin" when deciding whether to ask somebody for proof of citizenship, but only to the extent already deemed constitutional by the courts."


    That is worded in a misleading way, it specifically says that race cannot be a determining factor in deciding who is illegal, other than what is currently provided by the constitution. So that means this law isn't going to lead to profiling any more than any other law is.

    I'm so proud of them, it's already working too. And really, this is a great experiment, to see what the impact of illegals really is. I mean will AZ lose money in the long run (10 years) or will they earn more money long run, how will it affect crime (if at all). I personally would love to see how this pans out because it could help answer some of the questions people have about the impact of illegal immigration.






    EDITL Everyone should read this New York Times article on it, it's balanced and explains what this all means

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/opinion/29kobach.html

    Comment

    • sgreger1
      Member
      • Mar 2009
      • 9451

      #3
      To add balance, read this article from NY Time, it's sort of a Q and A:



      It is unfair to demand that aliens carry their documents with them. It is true that the Arizona law makes it a misdemeanor for an alien to fail to carry certain documents. “Now, suddenly, if you don’t have your papers ... you’re going to be harassed,” the president said. “That’s not the right way to go.” But since 1940, it has been a federal crime for aliens to fail to keep such registration documents with them. The Arizona law simply adds a state penalty to what was already a federal crime. Moreover, as anyone who has traveled abroad knows, other nations have similar documentation requirements.

      “Reasonable suspicion” is a meaningless term that will permit police misconduct. Over the past four decades, federal courts have issued hundreds of opinions defining those two words. The Arizona law didn’t invent the concept: Precedents list the factors that can contribute to reasonable suspicion; when several are combined, the “totality of circumstances” that results may create reasonable suspicion that a crime has been committed.

      For example, the Arizona law is most likely to come into play after a traffic stop. A police officer pulls a minivan over for speeding. A dozen passengers are crammed in. None has identification. The highway is a known alien-smuggling corridor. The driver is acting evasively. Those factors combine to create reasonable suspicion that the occupants are not in the country legally.

      The law will allow police to engage in racial profiling. Actually, Section 2 provides that a law enforcement official “may not solely consider race, color or national origin” in making any stops or determining immigration status. In addition, all normal Fourth Amendment protections against profiling will continue to apply. In fact, the Arizona law actually reduces the likelihood of race-based harassment by compelling police officers to contact the federal government as soon as is practicable when they suspect a person is an illegal alien, as opposed to letting them make arrests on their own assessment.

      It is unfair to demand that people carry a driver’s license. Arizona’s law does not require anyone, alien or otherwise, to carry a driver’s license. Rather, it gives any alien with a license a free pass if his immigration status is in doubt. Because Arizona allows only lawful residents to obtain licenses, an officer must presume that someone who produces one is legally in the country.

      State governments aren’t allowed to get involved in immigration, which is a federal matter. While it is true that Washington holds primary authority in immigration, the Supreme Court since 1976 has recognized that states may enact laws to discourage illegal immigration without being pre-empted by federal law. As long as Congress hasn’t expressly forbidden the state law in question, the statute doesn’t conflict with federal law and Congress has not displaced all state laws from the field, it is permitted. That’s why Arizona’s 2007 law making it illegal to knowingly employ unauthorized aliens was sustained by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

      In sum, the Arizona law hardly creates a police state. It takes a measured, reasonable step to give Arizona police officers another tool when they come into contact with illegal aliens during their normal law enforcement duties.

      And it’s very necessary: Arizona is the ground zero of illegal immigration. Phoenix is the hub of human smuggling and the kidnapping capital of America, with more than 240 incidents reported in 2008. It’s no surprise that Arizona’s police associations favored the bill, along with 70 percent of Arizonans.



      Unfortunately, the Obama administration has scaled back work-site enforcement and otherwise shown it does not consider immigration laws to be a high priority. Is it any wonder the Arizona Legislature, at the front line of the immigration issue, sees things differently?

      Comment

      • timholian
        Member
        • Apr 2010
        • 1448

        #4
        Originally posted by sgreger1 View Post
        [I]1)

        EDITL Everyone should read this New York Times article on it, it's balanced and explains what this all means

        http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/29/opinion/29kobach.html
        What about FactCheck.org isn't balanced? And did you even read the article? Come'on sgreger I thought better of you.
        What do you think of the WHOLE article, like the fact that AZ is trying to create what is basically their own foreign policy.
        I don't have a problem with the AZ law per-say but federal law comes first... right, I mean thats how it works, ask the medical pot users in your state.

        Comment

        • sgreger1
          Member
          • Mar 2009
          • 9451

          #5
          Originally posted by timholian View Post
          What about FactCheck.org isn't balanced? And did you even read the article? Come'on sgreger I thought better of you.
          What do you think of the WHOLE article, like the fact that AZ is trying to create what is basically their own foreign policy.
          I don't have a problem with the AZ law per-say but federal law comes first... right, I mean thats how it works, ask the medical pot users in your state.

          Sorry, didn't mean to jump on you, the article you posted was actually very legit (compared to what I was expecting)

          It won't conflict with federal law though:

          The Supreme Court since 1976 has recognized that states may enact laws to discourage illegal immigration without being pre-empted by federal law. As long as Congress hasn’t expressly forbidden the state law in question, the statute doesn’t conflict with federal law and Congress has not displaced all state laws from the field, it is permitted. That’s why Arizona’s 2007 law making it illegal to knowingly employ unauthorized aliens was sustained by the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.




          Tim, I personally think that whether you are pro-illegals anti-illegal or anything in between (like you just think it's another violation of civil liberties), everyone should let this one slide and let the law go into effect. We have had a lot of theories and estimates over the years that try to claim that illegals either drain the system and raise crime or do not drain the system and actually reduce crime. This will allow us to find out for sure. It's a good experiment.


          EDIT: Weed laws here are legal on the state level so it goes smoothly for the most part, occasionally feds will intervene but that's because federal law and state law conflict. This is just a state upholding a federal law for the most part so it should not conflict.

          Comment

          • tom502
            Member
            • Feb 2009
            • 8985

            #6
            Illegal is a crime.

            Comment

            • MasterGuns
              Member
              • Jun 2009
              • 312

              #7
              My favorite news quote ever ran something like this: "Crime among illegal immigrants is statistically lower than among legal citizens." Geraldo Rivera and others have said this.
              Hmmmmm....something here just doesn't add up....

              Comment

              • sgreger1
                Member
                • Mar 2009
                • 9451

                #8
                Originally posted by MasterGuns View Post
                My favorite news quote ever ran something like this: "Crime among illegal immigrants is statistically lower than among legal citizens." Geraldo Rivera and others have said this.
                Hmmmmm....something here just doesn't add up....


                I would say statistically it would be, they are afraid of getting deported so most of them lay low, it's the second generation ones who grow up in the bario that cause crime. Also, there are of course some criminal as well, a decent amount of our prisons are filled with illegal aliens.

                The question is not whether or not to replace existing citizens with illegals, lol, it's what impact does it have in society when they are added to the population. If crime per year = 100, and then illegals make only 50 crime a year, that is still a net increase since their crime is in addition to existing crime, so now we have 150 crime, see?




                Holy shit, I think I just got your original intention, that since they are all criminals for coming here illegally, in theory it can't be lower since each one has committed at least 1 crime. *DOH!

                Comment

                • tom502
                  Member
                  • Feb 2009
                  • 8985

                  #9
                  Their being here is a crime.

                  Comment

                  • cj
                    Member
                    • Jul 2009
                    • 1563

                    #10
                    and more

                    Comment

                    • bakerbarber
                      Member
                      • Jun 2008
                      • 1947

                      #11
                      http://www.personalliberty.com/immig...-poll-results/

                      Comment

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