They're gonna build you that nice mosque you wanted.

[sgreger1]

I don't really have anything else to add that hasn't already been stated. I think it's offensive, inappropriate, insulting, and downright poor etiquette to build this mosque or any mosque in the immediate area. But, there is no law against it (nor should there be) and it is a freedom granted in this country. I just wonder how long it will take before someone firebombs the joint.

That's what i'm afraid of. I don't feel it's intolerant for people to be upset about this, but it is likely some whacko will retaliate and shoot the place up or something like that muslim did at Ft Hood a while back. That would be incredibly intolerant, and while the media and the government were quick to make sure no one labeled the Ft Hood Muslim shooter as a terrorist or deem it a hate crime, they would SURELY label someone who bombs this mosque as a terrorist hate crimiminal (assuming they're white and republican of course).

[Darwin]

i agree about the property rights issue but there are vast reams of regulations already extant across the land limiting what one can or can not do with one's property. A great many of these regs are spurious and anti-freedom but an even greater number are approved by the the majority of residents of particular areas. Zoning is of course the primary seat of all these regulations and there are very few cities that do not have some sort of it. I spent most of my adult life in a city, Houston, that does not have zoning, per se, but even there restrictions on such things sex businesses and liquor stores are abundant. And many deed restricted neighborhoods can be positively OCD about enforcement of seemingly inconsequential mandates. So we do in fact live with a great many restrictions on our property rights. Much of the time we don't like it and some of the time we do--the gored ox syndrome is ever at work.

Add to that the fact that just because something is legal does not mean that it is a good idea. Building a church right next to a cattle feed lot might be legal but it would be a stupendously lousy idea. This the the situation in NY. Building the proposed facility in the shadow of the WTC site is completely legal but is a really bad idea. Pursuing this incredibly contentious idea will earn local Muslims a boat load of bad public relations that they can ill afford however legal and constitutionally sound it may be.

[sgreger1]

i agree about the property rights issue but there are vast reams of regulations already extant across the land limiting what one can or can not do with one's property. A great many of these regs are spurious and anti-freedom but an even greater number are approved by the the majority of residents of particular areas. Zoning is of course the primary seat of all these regulations and there are very few cities that do not have some sort of it. I spent most of my adult life in a city, Houston, that does not have zoning, per se, but even there restrictions on such things sex businesses and liquor stores are abundant. And many deed restricted neighborhoods can be positively OCD about enforcement of seemingly inconsequential mandates. So we do in fact live with a great many restrictions on our property rights. Much of the time we don't like it and some of the time we do--the gored ox syndrome is ever at work.

Add to that the fact that just because something is legal does not mean that it is a good idea. Building a church right next to a cattle feed lot might be legal but it would be a stupendously lousy idea. This the the situation in NY. Building the proposed facility in the shadow of the WTC site is completely legal but is a really bad idea. Pursuing this incredibly contentious idea will earn local Muslims a boat load of bad public relations that they can ill afford however legal and constitutionally sound it may be.

And I agree with that as well, I think it's bad planning and likely done on purpose to try and draw out the racists and make Americans look bad. Islam is by it's very nature inherintly racist and most muslim countries are on the list of worst offenders when it comes to racism, but like many other countries they try to paint Americans as being the only racists ones.

I know there are already a lot of restrictions on property rights, this is why I said they have already been eroded almost to extinction. But in this particular case there is no foul as far as it being legal. They aren't building it in a residential area or something, no zoning laws are being violated, and in fact no laws of any sort are being violated, the only problem anyone has with it is the fact that it's a dick move.

I agree it's a dick move but I maintain that it's not the gov's responsibility (nor it's right) to decide what religions can establish temples in certain areas (unless it violates existing zoning laws for example). Rather we should let the market decide this as always, if people will come there and worship and spend money etc, than it has a right to exist. Such is the American way. If there is no support for it and it becomes too costly for it to operate, than it will be closed down and the problem will be solved.




America is successfull because we have learned (sort of) to not always cave to populist opinion, but rather to do the right thing. At one point in time slavery was favored by the majority of voters and therefore it existed. The government said that this was wrong and that it wanted to abolish it, despite the populist sentiment at the time that it should exist. Freedom won and we are the better for it. The same thing happened for women's rights and every other type of civil rights movement, they all took place at a time where a majority of people didn't want to extend freedoms to these oppressed groups, but America ruled in favor of extending the freedoms to these parties, and again we are the better for it. This is one of those times, right now everyone hates muslims, and we as Americans cannot allow populist opinions to override the right to freedom. If we allow that, America loses and we become nothing more than another oppressive country existing ona planet glittered with many oppressive governments. The whole point of America was to be different and to be better, and now is no time to change that.

[Darwin]

Support for the project has emerged from a new quarter--Hamas.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/h...a8sNZMTDz0VVPI

With endorsements like that who needs......?

[sgreger1]

Support for the project has emerged from a new quarter--Hamas.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/h...a8sNZMTDz0VVPI

With endorsements like that who needs......?

Of course they are in favor of it, it serves their purpose. It doesn't mean anything though. This is like when a group of racists like the KKK says they support Ron Paul or republicans in general or something. They are, without solicitation, giving an endorsement for something when no one asked their opinion. The fact extremists endorse something doesn't mean what your doing is wrong, it's just that they stand to gain by you doing it. I heard Hamas endorses pita bread, so don't let me catch any of you eating it because it may mean you are part of a terrorist group.

[lxskllr]

I just wonder how long it will take before someone firebombs the joint.

Screw it. That means more work for Americans. Sounds like job security :^D

[RobsanX]

I'm offended every time I see a Catholic church near a school..

[CoderGuy]

I'm offended every time I see a Catholic church near a school..

I'm offended every time I see a church.

[f. bandersnatch]

I am offended. Just that. All the time and at everything. I spend far too much time worrying about what other people are doing, or, conversely, not nearly enough time worrying about what I am doing. I hate pretty much everything that is different than my own myopic slice of the world pie, and I would be most happy if it all went away, but I would also be consequently and intolerably bored.

[Darwin]

"I hate pretty much everything that is different than my own myopic slice of the world pie"

And I am offended that you keep coming up with similes and metaphors of which I am quite selfishly jealous.

[amorican]

http://www.masjidmanhattan.com/

This has been there for almost 40 years. Get over it.

Additionally, The ignorant side of the argument is showing their ignorance, hate, and fear of everything and everyone not just like them. The irony is that many have spent the last several years screaming about how their rights to practice their religion are under attack from "socialists", "communists", "fascists", and "atheists", and demanded to be allowed to teach their unfounded beliefs in public classrooms alongside scientific fact. But the moment someone wants to practice their religion, freely, and not by imposing or forcing any changes on a publicly-funded system, they scream bloody murder.

The most frightening thing about all of this is that so many people are swayed by both their narrow views and by the talking heads on the television that reinforce those messages. And those people really do believe the same things as Muslims - that if they give their lives to their religious beliefs, that there are rewards in the afterlife. "christian" fundamentalists and "islamic" terrorists are really quite similar. One may not (yet) be strapping explosives to themselves and walking into shopping malls, but the rhetoric is doing the same damage to our society.

America is a great land of freedom. That freedom to bear arms that is so irrationally feared of being taken away is no different than the freedom to build a religious center, day care, and mosque in a building. I really don't see the offensive side of this, and I think it's being very over-analyzed because this is an election year. I seriously doubt that the Muslims building it are having a chuckle right now at the expense of the nearly 3000 people who sadly lost their lives in the 9-11 attack.

[CoderGuy]

http://www.masjidmanhattan.com/

This has been there for almost 40 years. Get over it.

Additionally, The ignorant side of the argument is showing their ignorance, hate, and fear of everything and everyone not just like them. The irony is that many have spent the last several years screaming about how their rights to practice their religion are under attack from "socialists", "communists", "fascists", and "atheists", and demanded to be allowed to teach their unfounded beliefs in public classrooms alongside scientific fact. But the moment someone wants to practice their religion, freely, and not by imposing or forcing any changes on a publicly-funded system, they scream bloody murder.

The most frightening thing about all of this is that so many people are swayed by both their narrow views and by the talking heads on the television that reinforce those messages. And those people really do believe the same things as Muslims - that if they give their lives to their religious beliefs, that there are rewards in the afterlife. "christian" fundamentalists and "islamic" terrorists are really quite similar. One may not (yet) be strapping explosives to themselves and walking into shopping malls, but the rhetoric is doing the same damage to our society.

America is a great land of freedom. That freedom to bear arms that is so irrationally feared of being taken away is no different than the freedom to build a religious center, day care, and mosque in a building. I really don't see the offensive side of this, and I think it's being very over-analyzed because this is an election year. I seriously doubt that the Muslims building it are having a chuckle right now at the expense of the nearly 3000 people who sadly lost their lives in the 9-11 attack.

I agree! It is amazing to me how many people (people that are first to complain about something being unconstitutional when it fits their needs) are now willing to completely throw away the constitution and decide freedom doesn't fit everyone. Reminds me of the post 911 days when even the hint of anti-Bushism (re Dixie Chicks) caused you to be throttled like you were an infidel. The real disturbing thing about all this are the poll numbers; over 70% feel this way! Very disappointing.

[Darwin]

Throttled like you were an infidel? Please. If the legion of frothing Bush critics were ever throttled in any significant way it was damn hard to tell. The vast steaming cauldrons of vitriol heaped upon Bush over the years made the conservative criticism of Clinton look like a love fest by comparison. Even going back to the dawn of the Republic when criticism of pols was particularly nasty it's hard to find examples that match in savage tone and maniacal volume the gobbling naked hatred of Bush that was on display in the blogosphere and elsewhere. Obama is experiencing positively kid glove treatment by his worst opponents compared to what Bush routinely saw.

[jamesstew]

I'm offended by offenders. Still better a mosque than a Scientology center.

[tom502]

I don't agree with that.