A sad day for science

[WickedKitchen]

Ahh...the what does it mean to be alive thread...that was a good one.

http://www.snuson.com/forum/showthre...ighlight=alive

[NonServiam]

This is a tough one for me. It used to be that when it came to issues like this and abortion, I really didn't give a shit. But when I was in the medical field for a few years I got the chance to see the aftermath of early and late term abortions first hand. The rapid insertion of a sharp instrument in the base of a fetus’ skull followed by the evacuation of brain matter via suction, was to me…brutal. To me early term abortion was no kinder as they would pull pieces out one by one…hand here, foot there. This did have an impact on me, and then after my daughter was born (very prematurely, the gestation of some late term abortions) I did a 180 on the issue.

So....Do I agree with abortion...No, not anymore. Too many people use abortion as a form of birth control in this country due to immaturity, irresponsibility, and poor decision making.

Do I agree with the stem cell research of already aborted fetuses....Yes. If they have already been aborted, then I guess we should at least reap some benefit. Children are giving by nature, and I feel that if that child had a voice, they would at least want someone to perhaps benefit from their death.

But then again, if we find benefit in abortion, I fear it will help to spur the acceptance of the practice among the populous.

I do not agree with embryonic stem cell research when it pertains to in-vitro fertility clinics, that purposefully fertilize eggs and then must kill the embryo in order to extract the vital cells. Now if you are dealing with the very early stages, the blastocyst which consists of approximately 5-7 cells, that I can tolerate a little easier.

I also believe that we are moving further and further away in the human race in terms of seeing value and sacredness in the essence of human life. When our existence is stripped of this “essence” everything will become very sterile…alien .

I could easily see a future point in our existence where actual human intercourse will become obsolete and be viewed as unsanitary, as we will be using alternative means to reproduce. We will no longer be on this planet, and will have found a way to sustain ourselves in outer space. The Sci-Fi movies are not too far from a possible reality in my opinion.

I am not religious, I am not Christian, but I am however spiritual, and I think in ways “old fashioned”.

[Big L]

This is a tough one for me. It used to be that when it came to issues like this and abortion, I really didn't give a shit. But when I was in the medical field for a few years I got the chance to see the aftermath of early and late term abortions first hand. The rapid insertion of a sharp instrument in the base of a fetus’ skull followed by the evacuation of brain matter via suction, was to me…brutal. To me early term abortion was no kinder as they would pull pieces out one by one…hand here, foot there. This did have an impact on me, and then after my daughter was born (very prematurely, the gestation of some late term abortions) I did a 180 on the issue.

So....Do I agree with abortion...No, not anymore. Too many people use abortion as a form of birth control in this country due to immaturity, irresponsibility, and poor decision making.

Do I agree with the stem cell research of already aborted fetuses....Yes. If they have already been aborted, then I guess we should at least reap some benefit. Children are giving by nature, and I feel that if that child had a voice, they would at least want someone to perhaps benefit from their death.

But then again, if we find benefit in abortion, I fear it will help to spur the acceptance of the practice among the populous.

I do not agree with embryonic stem cell research when it pertains to in-vitro fertility clinics, that purposefully fertilize eggs and then must kill the embryo in order to extract the vital cells. Now if you are dealing with the very early stages, the blastocyst which consists of approximately 5-7 cells, that I can tolerate a little easier.

I also believe that we are moving further and further away in the human race in terms of seeing value and sacredness in the essence of human life. When our existence is stripped of this “essence” everything will become very sterile…alien .

I could easily see a future point in our existence where actual human intercourse will become obsolete and be viewed as unsanitary, as we will be using alternative means to reproduce. We will no longer be on this planet, and will have found a way to sustain ourselves in outer space. The Sci-Fi movies are not too far from a possible reality in my opinion.

I am not religious, I am not Christian, but I am however spiritual, and I think in ways “old fashioned”.

I agree with you. I guess I am old-fashioned in some ways as well. I'm not in the medical field, but my brother and his wife are, and from what they've told and shown me I know abortions are not pleasant or just a removal of tissue. Totally taking religion out of the picture, the fetuses were alive. We should not take that fact lightly. Personally, I am against abortion, but I would not make that decision for another, nor do I want the government to make it for others. I can't judge someone else's circumstances for getting an abortion. BUT, if the aborted fetuses already exist and are going to be destroyed, it seems ludicrous not to do research and gain benefit from it. I can't help feeling conflicted about the issue, but not so much that I would outright ban the research.

[sgreger1]

This is a tough one for me. It used to be that when it came to issues like this and abortion, I really didn't give a shit. But when I was in the medical field for a few years I got the chance to see the aftermath of early and late term abortions first hand. The rapid insertion of a sharp instrument in the base of a fetus’ skull followed by the evacuation of brain matter via suction, was to me…brutal. To me early term abortion was no kinder as they would pull pieces out one by one…hand here, foot there. This did have an impact on me, and then after my daughter was born (very prematurely, the gestation of some late term abortions) I did a 180 on the issue.

So....Do I agree with abortion...No, not anymore. Too many people use abortion as a form of birth control in this country due to immaturity, irresponsibility, and poor decision making.

Do I agree with the stem cell research of already aborted fetuses....Yes. If they have already been aborted, then I guess we should at least reap some benefit. Children are giving by nature, and I feel that if that child had a voice, they would at least want someone to perhaps benefit from their death.

But then again, if we find benefit in abortion, I fear it will help to spur the acceptance of the practice among the populous.

I do not agree with embryonic stem cell research when it pertains to in-vitro fertility clinics, that purposefully fertilize eggs and then must kill the embryo in order to extract the vital cells. Now if you are dealing with the very early stages, the blastocyst which consists of approximately 5-7 cells, that I can tolerate a little easier.

I also believe that we are moving further and further away in the human race in terms of seeing value and sacredness in the essence of human life. When our existence is stripped of this “essence” everything will become very sterile…alien .

I could easily see a future point in our existence where actual human intercourse will become obsolete and be viewed as unsanitary, as we will be using alternative means to reproduce. We will no longer be on this planet, and will have found a way to sustain ourselves in outer space. The Sci-Fi movies are not too far from a possible reality in my opinion.

I am not religious, I am not Christian, but I am however spiritual, and I think in ways “old fashioned”.

^^^ This post sums up 100% of my feelings on the subject. Every single word. I am 100% opposed to late term abortion, or anything past the point of it just being lump of cells. Once it starts looking like a baby, that's a baby imo. (Fyi, embryonic stem cells can come from 5 day old fetuses, so not really a life yet if you ask me)

My wife and I got pregnant when i was 23 and she was 22, I was stationed 2,000 miles away from where my wife lived, I was in the army and constantly moving, and we hadn't known each other for long. We considered abortion. Now, a common topic that is brought up often, is the fact that "I cannot believe we even remotely considered abortion." Literally, after having raised my daughter to nearly 2 years of age, the very idea that we may have denied her existance in order to avoid some inconvenience on our behalf is unthinkable at best.


Frankly I don't know how anyone with children could be okay with abortion.

[PipenSnus]

I don't want to argue about whether abortion is right or wrong, or whether or not a fetus is an independent life form from the mother, at any stage of development. But I will argue that the party that decides whether a particular abortion is right or wrong should be the woman in question, and not the state. Yes, it would be better if everyone used birth control and practiced safer sex every time, but that's not the world we live in. Humans are irrational animals that are capable of rational thought. Humans do foolish things more often then not, especially when it comes to instinctual behaviors like sexuality. If we want to punish foolishness, though, why start with women in desperate situations? Wouldn't it be more sensible to begin by punishing the Wall Street bankers who have foolishly wrecked and plundered our economic system, or the war hawks who can't stop interfering in other countries' politics? Where is our sense of priorities? It seems to me that most people are straining at gnats and swallowing camels, to use a Biblical expression.

[NonServiam]

^^^ E=This post sums up 100% of my feelings on the subject. Every single word.

Embryonic stem cell research is really one of those topics that I'm so torn on. There can be a lot of grey area sometimes.

On one hand I really embrace science, but on the other hand I feel that maybe we have become (and will become) so advanced that we will begin to conflict with the natural order of things. Like natural selection for instance. War, famine, death, disease, and pestilence exist for a reason.

They don't exist because of some cloven-hoofed, pitch fork wielding Burt Reynolds look-a-like, nor are those misfortunes bestowed upon us from the wrath of some vengeful god in the sky. They exist as they are part of the natural balance. You must destroy to create. It's the whole yin/yang thing. Much like you said that this research would do many things to prolong and save lives, but then the strain on our natural and man-made resourses will increase.

[NonServiam]

I don't want to argue about whether abortion is right or wrong, or whether or not a fetus is an independent life form from the mother, at any stage of development. But I will argue that the party that decides whether a particular abortion is right or wrong should be the woman in question, and not the state. Yes, it would be better if everyone used birth control and practiced safer sex every time, but that's not the world we live in. Humans are irrational animals that are capable of rational thought. Humans do foolish things more often then not, especially when it comes to instinctual behaviors like sexuality. If we want to punish foolishness, though, why start with women in desperate situations? Wouldn't it be more sensible to begin by punishing the Wall Street bankers who have foolishly wrecked and plundered our economic system, or the war hawks who can't stop interfering in other countries' politics? Where is our sense of priorities? It seems to me that most people are straining at gnats and swallowing camels, to use a Biblical expression.

I'm not one who really likes to argue the topic either. It's like arguing religion. All you do is spin your wheels. But I do want to address a few points as far as my interpretation.

I guess it really comes down to if you view abortion as an act of murder when you apply the argument of woman's decision vs. gov't decision. And yes, instinct and horomones can really make a person do some foolish things. But I don't see condemning the procedure as punishment. I see it as taking accountability for your actions, rather than destroying life because "you are not ready for a child yet".

And you are correct, there are many people making foolish decisions in the world that need to be punished. To me, a human embryo is a very high priority, and it is something that should have never lost rungs on the ladder.

But like I said, it's a topic that people usually hold very strong convictions on, so debate while sometimes healthy, will always be futile.

[Simplysnus]

The problem with abortion debates is that at some point in time a person gains the right to protection, and arbitrarily assigning that right without reason beyond appearances of the fetus is disingenous.

[sgreger1]

The problem with abortion debates is that at some point in time a person gains the right to protection, and arbitrarily assigning that right without reason beyond appearances of the fetus is disingenous.

Well this is the big snag for all parties, the question of "when is it considered alive". I mean at what age does it think? At what age does it feel, or become self aware?

Perhaps in the future we can use some kind of MRI or something to monitor the brain waves of a fetus to establish the exact period in which it comes "online" and should be conisdered a life. As of right now, it's all just everyones personal opinion.

[snusjus]

I believe extending the lives of living, breathing human beings is far more important than worrying about an embryo. There may be a time in your life when you wished stem-cell research could have been utilized to its full potential.

[Simplysnus]

Well this is the big snag for all parties, the question of "when is it considered alive". I mean at what age does it think? At what age does it feel, or become self aware?

Perhaps in the future we can use some kind of MRI or something to monitor the brain waves of a fetus to establish the exact period in which it comes "online" and should be conisdered a life. As of right now, it's all just everyones personal opinion.

That doesn't answer how rights become assigned, something growing is not "alive" and on the path to fulfilling potential?

[PipenSnus]

And you are correct, there are many people making foolish decisions in the world that need to be punished.

You read into my words the exact opposite of what I was trying to convey. I was trying to express the irony of passing judgment on people for making foolish decisions that that affect only their own small world, while others make foolish decisions that negatively affect billions of lives, and go unscathed. I don't care to sit in judgment of a woman who decides to have an abortion, and I don't think society should either.

You say that a human embryo is a very high priority to you, and I respect your subjective opinion. But I strongly disagree with allowing subjective opinion to have the deciding voice in matters of public policy. Reason must prevail.

[ChaoticGemini]

So....Do I agree with abortion...No, not anymore. Too many people use abortion as a form of birth control in this country due to immaturity, irresponsibility, and poor decision making.

I agree, but this concept makes me support abortion as an option because I feel we create an even worse situation when we force people like this to be parents.

[SnusoMatic]

i think people should give consent before their bodies are chopped up and used to fix someone else's health problems. but mostly i believe what i believe don't matter to Obama or anyone else.

We in the USA decided abortion was good to go back in the 1973. at that point the fetus/embryo was no longer a person according to the court. so chopping them up to make health products is just the next step in the process of moral decline.

i wonder how long it will be before someone with a small penis can go to the large penis farm and get a big one? my bet is some day I ... i mean they will be able to.

fyi, if you don't agree with me then that's OK but Obama don't care what you think either ;-)

[WickedKitchen]

I'm jumping back in here.

I have two children and thankfully they were born and so far raised healthy. My wife was older than 35 when she became pregnant with our second child and the doctors and nurses pushed and pushed us to do all the tests to see if the fetus was in some way deficient. We denied every single one of those tests with the understanding that whatever we got we got. If we found out that the baby would be born restarted or something we were not going to abort on those grounds. Now having the two girls we decided that two was what we were going to have. I got a vasectomy (highly recommended, by the way) and if for some reason my wife got pregnant now I would advocate for abortion.

I do think that it's better to abort a fetus because you're not ready to have a baby. If you don't truly want a child you aren't going to raise it with the same vigor you would if you did want it thus creating a potential degradation of society. This wouldn't be true every time of course but I think it's safe to say that the odds are in the favor of the argument I just made.

I also believe that because a man an a woman have intercourse or even get close and create a life it's a biological occurrence. I don't think that life is sacred at that point. The sperm entered the egg and that's why the gestation began. Put the two in a test tube and the same occurrence could be made to happen. What about a woman who is raped? Should that be different? The argument people have for that only supports the argument I made in the previous paragraph.

I totally agree that it should not be the states right to dictate weather or not a woman has the right to choose, but what about the men? Have we no rights in this whatsoever? What happens when a couple decides to create a child and then a few months into it the woman goes berzerk and doesn't want the kid anymore...or the man? Is it right to take that away from him? For these reasons this debate will never end, nor will anyone's arguments be accepted by everyone. That's part of being human...as Pipen said...we're irrational beings. So true, man.

So now that this thread is completely hijacked we should recognize that just about everyone agrees with the initial premise...Stem Cell Research is good and the aborted whatever-stage parasites should be used for science rather than discarded. Someone mentioned when they become self aware. I don't think that happens until about 2 or 3 months AFTER birth. Hell, I'm 36 and I still haven't gotten it 100% yet.