International Burn-a-Quran Day

[tom502]

While nowhere near the level of other countries, the Muslim extremists in the west are mainly the so-called "honor killers", fathers that kill their daughters because they wore blue jeans.

I do agree poverty does have an impact, but I think even more, lack of an open society, and lack of a proper education plays a bigger role, as well as being immersed in that fanatical environement.

And the balance of extremist fanatics is not balanced, while you might find some in Christianity, it's usually the anti-abortinists that take it to the level of killing, but in all of history, I think only 4 abortion doctors have been killed. And while there might be some isolated cases of Buddhism and Hindu extremists, I am not aware of any that believe in suicide bombings and holy war, though the Muslims have been killing Hindus and Buddhists for a long time now.

So, sure, there are nuts, and even violent extremists in many religious paths, but Islam stands out, because it is so large, enormous, maybe in the millions even, with a much larger amount of supporters and funders, and silent knodders.

And interperative literatures is not the same as how Muslims uphold the haditha compared with others, because the basis of the others, esp Hinduism and Buddhism, is further elucidation of their original teachings of spiritual awakening, not the base and crazy teachings to held as supreme one finds in the hadith.

Islam stands out as unique, it's obvious or all this we see today would not be happening.

[tom502]

james- a while back, I was on a spiritual quest, and free and single to persue these interests. I have studied and participated in many. I am not an expert, but I did want to learn about them in my own quest to understand, at least what they taught. They all have good points, and points I disagreed with. It was an important part of my life, though these days I am an unaffiliated mystic, mainly influenced by the far eastern tradtions.

[sgreger1]

tom, if you don't hate Muslims, how come the slightest mention of them draws a comparison to al-Qaeda from you? And where are the crazed Muslims you speak of? They're certainly not here in the US. I have to go through a couple of heavily Muslim neighbourhoods every day and I haven't seen any riots. You see the same thing you're fretting over happen in Christian nations in Africa all the time. It's not just Islam tom, it's poverty. Hell, we do it here for less. Sports riots anyone?

If you criticise Islam for haditha, you need to call out Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism and a ton of others tom. Your claim that having interpretation of scripture by religious folks somehow makes it a violent death cult, and not one of your approved "personal faiths," is laughable in both it's foolishness and how easily it is dismissed.

There was a lot if middle eastern people when I lived in certain parts of LA. Some were mainly indian, some were armenian/Iranian/turkish, and some were more of the pakistani /afghani types. The problem i have is that they are being catagorized unfairly for their behavior.
For example, China town. Asians, like most minorities in a new country, band together into small communities and create a small cross section of their home country here on our soil. Absolutely nothign wrong with this and it should be expected. Yet when the muslims do it, we hear about how they are forming these evil take-over anti-flag communities or something. It is natural for immegrants to band together in one area and make the area kind of run like it did back home. Many muslims want sharia law in their neighborhoods or want to practice their way of life in a less western way. I say fine, let them be like the Amish. Give them their space and let them do what they want, just don't bring that shit to my neighborhood because over here this is America and I don't wish to participate in your subculture. It works for everyone else, so not sure why people have a problem with the muslims doing it.

Look at the jewish hacid communities with the orthodox guys with cool beards and Lincoln style tophats, they set up their temple and all move within walking distance from it, and a new community is born. I wouldn't have a problem with Muslims doing the same thing.

HOWEVER, in return for being adaptible to their sutation and being compasionate towards their religion and way of life, I expect them to treat us with the same respect. In western culture we like to make fun of our differences. If a show like southpark draws the prophet muhammed, let's not cause a riot and send out death threats or kill people over it. To you it is blasphemy, but to americans it is all in good humor. Just like we will tolerate your bassackwards ways (from our perspective), you must tolerate ours as well. Freedom is not a one way street.


So muslims want to build a mosque in a place that is sensistive and provoking to Americans? Fine let them. But don't cry foul when some backwoods deusche pastor wants to burn some of your holy books. Freedom is the ability to piss people off without backlash. We all have to learn to live in peace, and sometimes that means just keeping to yourself and not worrying about what others are doing. This is still a big experiment, this american melting pot, and everyone will not always get along. Muslims come from a more militant background and that does not jive with our culture. So lets let them do their thing, but please, muslims, lets us do our thing as well. Even if it pisses you off, we have freedom too.

[devilock76]

mainly influenced by the far eastern tradtions.

And sales pitches.

HEHEHEHEHE

Ken

[raptor]

Islam is not unique.

Christianity has its growing phases too, like the Crusades, which were essentially an all-out Jihad to take over the holy land. And there were all those European religious wars (30 yrs. war) and the wars of Reformation and the Spanish Inquisition. The conquest of the New World that wiped out most of the indigenous peoples, through both force and disease. Even 19th century Imperialism was Christian in nature, taming the wild men of Africa and India.

It is true that Christianity has been adapted since it was one of the most killer religions in the world. Islam has no Catechism, just the compiled words of the Prophet from 7th century CE. Muslims need to adapt their religion, and it will cost many lives in future fighting amongst themselves. That is a process they need to do themselves.

So don't pretend Christianity is all high and mighty with regards to its violence record; it's likely the most violent religion out there.

[sgreger1]

Islam is not unique.

Christianity has its growing phases too, like the Crusades, which were essentially an all-out Jihad to take over the holy land. And there were all those European religious wars (30 yrs. war) and the wars of Reformation and the Spanish Inquisition. The conquest of the New World that wiped out most of the indigenous peoples, through both force and disease. Even 19th century Imperialism was Christian in nature, taming the wild men of Africa and India.

It is true that Christianity has been adapted since it was one of the most killer religions in the world. Islam has no Catechism, just the compiled words of the Prophet from 7th century CE. Muslims need to adapt their religion, and it will cost many lives in future fighting amongst themselves. That is a process they need to do themselves.

So don't pretend Christianity is all high and mighty with regards to its violence record; it's likely the most violent religion out there.

And if this were 1,000 years ago this would be a valid argument, but this is not a debate on history, this is a debate about how things are today. Christianity has long left it's extremist roots and is now mainly a benign group of people. Meanwhile, since everyone else has joined the modern world and calmed down, islam is trying to make a comeback. Tom is not saying christians didn't kill more people back in the day, he is saying that today we have a serious problem with them and ONLY them, which is why they have drawn international attention and why most of the developed world has been at war with them in recent years.

There are over a billion musslims. Even if only 1% are extremists that still means million of people subscribe to this extremist ideology. This is a big problem because they are heavily funded and down to kill people. From bombing naval vessels, to embassies, to marketplaces, to their own townspeople, they have become a problem. They can't really in good conscience blame anyone but themselves. They further hurt their cause by causing the death of their civilians. They provoke the west and draw military conflict into their region, which inevitably will result in civilians dying. They know this but do not care. When Iseal is obeying a cease fire, Hamas will go provoke them by launching some rockets onto some schools. Then they cry foul when israeli soldiers retaliate and some civilians die in the process. They pack a flotilla full of violent protestors who beat up and stab soldiers and then cry foul when they get shot by soldiers defending themselves. Really, these are not kids, they know what they are doing, they know the consequences. They have made their bed and now are complaining that they must lay in it.



Most muslims are not extremists, but there are so many that ARE extremists that it warrants the kind of response they are getting. In the modern world you cannot go around blowing things up because God told you to, it is no longer accepted in society and will not be tolerated.

[tom502]

The majority Christians nations are the most free, and welcoming, and tolerant of them all. If not, why do all these people want to come here, and if not, why is every religion able to have it's Moques, and Temples? Where is the religious openess and freedom of religion in the majority Muslim nations? You open a Mosque on your block, yet I dare you to open a Dharma center in Afganistan.

[sgreger1]

Here is the response tot he (yet to happen) Quaran burning:




http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100909/...rning_reaction

Afghans protest Quran burning plan, torch US flag









KABUL, Afghanistan – Hundreds of angry Afghans burned a U.S. flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" on Thursday to protest plans by a small American church to torch copies of the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.




^^^^--- All you leftists. Will we see pages of comments following this about how christians aren't to blame and how the Muslims are being inteollerant? Will you all explain how it is ignorant to call for the death of billions of people just because some small group of christians does something offensive?


Will there be a national effort to decry these flag burnings by the muslims, will the media report on how most Christians are peacefull, and we shouldnt hate them because of something a small group is doing?






EDIT:



"A cleric in Afghanistan's largely peaceful Balkh province also warned Thursday that, if the burning goes ahead, a protest will be held in the provincial capital Mazar-i-Sharif next Monday. Protesters could hurl stones at NATO-led troops stationed in the city — one of the country's main centers of the Islamic teaching."

"If Quran is burned it would be beginning of destruction of America,"

"Down with America!"

They are deploying the Afghan national police to stop the protesters from overwhelming the Afghan military outposts. Large scale protests and violence is scheduled for later this week.


^^^ WHY IS THIS ACCEPTABLE? The whole ****ing world wants to complain and call us intollerant when people protest the mosque at ground zero in a peacefull, civil manner, yet when these ****s start hurling rocks at troops and calling for the death of all christians (several billion people) and the destruction of the US, I bet people like Joe won't say a ****ing thing. Because none of this is about equality or tolerance, it is about hating america and christians. There is a double standard, muslims can murder, bomb, and kill whoever they watn if they are slightly pissed off about something, but yet it is some giant scandal if some americans want to peacefully protest a mosque being built on a site where muslims brutally murdered thousands of Americans and caused billions in property damage.



Now they are deploying soldiers and armed officers to guard all the christian churches near baghdad because of the massive threat of retaliation and violence towards christians in the region. Like always, the muslims are pissed about something so they are going to go find all the christians and murder them, as is standard for them. In America when were pisssed at the mosque being built, we protest and call in talk radio shows or complain on the internet, and WE are called intollerant, but the whoesale murder of people based on religion is acceptible to the left and the world at large.



WHY THE DOUBLE STANDARD. Why is it racism and intollerance when Americans protest something peacefully, but when Muslism go out murdering christians, burning flags and attacking troops all you leftist pigs stand up for it every ****in time. WHY WHY WHY. Where is the international outcry at these muslim protestors? Where, WHERE is it?

[tom502]

This pastor is being proven right more as each day passes. I hope he goes through with it. But sadly, the self-hating American pro-terrorist PC liberals instead of saying anything against the radical muslims who only desire to bath in the blood of innocents, they will blame some books being burned.

[snusgetter]

... ^^^ WHY IS THIS ACCEPTABLE? The whole ****ing world wants to complain and call us intollerant when people protest the mosque at ground zero in a peacefull, civil manner, yet when these ****s start hurling rocks at troops and calling for the death of all christians (several billion people) and the destruction of the US, I bet people like Joe won't say a ****ing thing. Because none of this is about equality or tolerance, it is about hating america and christians. ...

I realize Joe has his own slants on life, and most of them are
controversial, but why are you singling him out here?

I can't find one single post in this thread by Joe!!

Why not wait till he chimes in before swinging at him --
it'll be more appropriate then.



Just saying.

[sgreger1]

I realize Joe has his own slants on life, and most of them are
controversial, but why are you singling him out here?

I can't find one single post in this thread by Joe!!

Why not wait till he chimes in before swinging at him --
it'll be more appropriate then.



Just saying.

Because my post was about double standards. In my experience here, one my my favorite posters, Joe, shows the biggest double-standard type of arguments for everything, which is why I singled him out.

Some posts of his:

Franklin Graham-Nut Case-Bozo - About christian idiots
"Let's Burn The Bible On 9/11" by Old Fart Rants - About the quaran burning.


^^^ I am just saying that everyone is quick to complain at christians, yet those same people do not want to mention anything bad that muslims do, and will fight to the death to defend the muslims and slander the chrisitans, even if both parties are doing the exact same thing.


Like how he loves the valiant leftists who are heroes for protesting the government during vietnam and blowing up buildings as part of a resistance effort, yet thinks the tea party is some right wing radical militia terrorist group. Like how Bush's spending and Bush's policies were bad, but Obama's policies that are almost exact mirror images of Bush's are somehow a great step forward for our country


Or how so often we hear that christians are intollerant for peacefull complaining about muslims, yet muslims are free to violently take out their anger on anyone and everyone without anyone calling them intolerant. When was the last time you saw the huffington post, Ap, Reuters, CNN, MSNBC, John Stweart, or Joe call muslims intollerant racists?

Everyone on the left seems to remember all the maybe 6 abortion clinic bombings and will never drop it, but the thousands of muslim bombing are all justified because of capitlism or something.

Double standards. That's why.

[tom502]

It's the crusades man, it's the crusades........................ and Tim McVeigh.

[snusgetter]

Because my post was about double standards. In my experience here, one my my favorite posters, Joe, shows the biggest double-standard type of arguments for everything, which is why I singled him out. ...

I asked ... you answered ... and I have no qualms with your answer.

Thanks.


Now we await Joe's rebuttal, if he has one.

[tom502]

Ya'know, the more I think about this, I think if this guy caves, and doesn't do it, this is another triumph of the terrorists, and a further implementation of Sharia law to take away our what's left American freedoms. I mean, under the threat of Islamic terrorism, we can no longer exercise our freedoms of expression. This is almost just like the South Park debacle, and now, because of the threat of Islamo-terror, they had to censor their cartoon image of Muhammed, and not even allow the airing of his name on the show. This is all a prime example of how Islam forces it's sharia law onto citizens of another country, and another culture, and we are fools if we bow to them.

[raptor]

And if this were 1,000 years ago this would be a valid argument, but this is not a debate on history, this is a debate about how things are today. Christianity has long left it's extremist roots and is now mainly a benign group of people. Meanwhile, since everyone else has joined the modern world and calmed down, islam is trying to make a comeback. Tom is not saying christians didn't kill more people back in the day, he is saying that today we have a serious problem with them and ONLY them, which is why they have drawn international attention and why most of the developed world has been at war with them in recent years.

We also have our own domestic terrorists. Yes they're not as well-funded as al Qaeda was, but they still do take lives and disrupt the peace.

As I said Muslims do have some adjustments to make, and they will need to keep fighting each other and killing each other off until they can come to some sort of consensus which modernizes Islam. Our meddling in their business is what inspires the extremists and helps with their recruitment.

When Israel is obeying a cease fire, Hamas will go provoke them by launching some rockets onto some schools. Then they cry foul when israeli soldiers retaliate and some civilians die in the process. They pack a flotilla full of violent protestors who beat up and stab soldiers and then cry foul when they get shot by soldiers defending themselves.

I hate getting into the whole Israel/Palestinian debate, but Israel broke the 2008 Gaza cease fire. Rocket fire from Gaza has killed fewer people than those murdered on the flotilla.

Most muslims are not extremists, but there are so many that ARE extremists that it warrants the kind of response they are getting. In the modern world you cannot go around blowing things up because God told you to, it is no longer accepted in society and will not be tolerated.

What response is merited? Are you referring to Islamophobia?

The majority Christians nations are the most free, and welcoming, and tolerant of them all. If not, why do all these people want to come here, and if not, why is every religion able to have it's Moques, and Temples? Where is the religious openess and freedom of religion in the majority Muslim nations? You open a Mosque on your block, yet I dare you to open a Dharma center in Afganistan.

Yes, several Muslim countries aren't secular. Our biggest oil buddies the Saudis are the worst, and places like Pakistan and Afghanistan desire to follow Sharia law to keep Islam "pure" from western influence.

That doesn't mean you can't open a church in most other Muslim nations, which are much more secular. There's just a few countries which aspire to follow religious law to a T.