International Burn-a-Quran Day

[WickedKitchen]

I think organized religions offer a sense of community to their members. For this, they are pretty good, IMO. I grew up Catholic and our family was pretty religious. We went to church every week, and then some. Confessions, missions, retreats, and all that stuff. We participated in the outings, events, and bazaars. It was nice for that. You have people with something in common doing things together. There was always friendship, people there to help others, and someone to lean on was always present. The church always had giving people. I've heard that this sense of belonging to something bigger is also present in the Islamic faith. I guess there is something to be said about that.

People have a fear of the unknown. Religion offers "answers" to those unknowns...if you have faith, I guess. To me, that's the biggest point of all of them. We all have a God sense in our brains, and this is scientifically proven. We don't really know what it means, or perhaps we don't understand how to interpret it. Many of us believe that there is something after death and I'm not so sure I disagree with that notion, either. The churches have writings and teachings that support this God sense and the afterlife. When there's a group of people that follow there is a sense of security too, and again, there's something to be said about that.

In every group there are people that take things farther than others. Religion is no different. The effects are also similar though in religion people tend to be so passionate and being drunk with passion causes humans to do weird things. Well, weird to the rest of us that don't have the same passion.

Another odd thing, I was told in CCD, by a priest, that the bible was not a history book only a book of fables that are written to send a message. That made sense to me but most Catholics I say this to tend to disagree. The priests never denied that Jesus walked and the stone moved and all that but they urged us not to take everything written in that book as literal fact...like the ark and the parting of the seas and stuff...though they all seemed to believe in the stone to bread phenomenon and the magical fishing events. It was inconsistent at best and that was probably the beginnings of the cracks I saw in the Roman Catholic following. When my father died the damn broke loose and many other things came into focus...or out of it as some would say.

I wish I had the answers but I am content not knowing really.

[CoderGuy]

I think organized religions offer a sense of community to their members. For this, they are pretty good, IMO. I grew up Catholic and our family was pretty religious. We went to church every week, and then some. Confessions, missions, retreats, and all that stuff. We participated in the outings, events, and bazaars. It was nice for that. You have people with something in common doing things together. There was always friendship, people there to help others, and someone to lean on was always present. The church always had giving people. I've heard that this sense of belonging to something bigger is also present in the Islamic faith. I guess there is something to be said about that.

People have a fear of the unknown. Religion offers "answers" to those unknowns...if you have faith, I guess. To me, that's the biggest point of all of them. We all have a God sense in our brains, and this is scientifically proven. We don't really know what it means, or perhaps we don't understand how to interpret it. Many of us believe that there is something after death and I'm not so sure I disagree with that notion, either. The churches have writings and teachings that support this God sense and the afterlife. When there's a group of people that follow there is a sense of security too, and again, there's something to be said about that.

In every group there are people that take things farther than others. Religion is no different. The effects are also similar though in religion people tend to be so passionate and being drunk with passion causes humans to do weird things. Well, weird to the rest of us that don't have the same passion.

Another odd thing, I was told in CCD, by a priest, that the bible was not a history book only a book of fables that are written to send a message. That made sense to me but most Catholics I say this to tend to disagree. The priests never denied that Jesus walked and the stone moved and all that but they urged us not to take everything written in that book as literal fact...like the ark and the parting of the seas and stuff...though they all seemed to believe in the stone to bread phenomenon and the magical fishing events. It was inconsistent at best and that was probably the beginnings of the cracks I saw in the Roman Catholic following. When my father died the damn broke loose and many other things came into focus...or out of it as some would say.

I wish I had the answers but I am content not knowing really.

Very cool answer Wicked.

[tom502]

I believe the reason many convert to Islam, is they want a "legitimate" reason, to separate themselves from mainstream society, and to be of the oppressed minority crowd, so they can not assimilate, and claim to be a victim.

[NonServiam]

I was told in CCD, by a priest, that the bible was not a history book only a book of fables that are written to send a message. That made sense to me but most Catholics I say this to tend to disagree. The priests never denied that Jesus walked and the stone moved and all that but they urged us not to take everything written in that book as literal fact...like the ark and the parting of the seas and stuff...though they all seemed to believe in the stone to bread phenomenon and the magical fishing events. It was inconsistent at best and that was probably the beginnings of the cracks I saw in the Roman Catholic following. When my father died the damn broke loose and many other things came into focus...or out of it as some would say.

Your post reminded me of something. When my wife wanted to have our daughter baptized, we had to meet with her Methodist minister ahead of time. I guess the minister picked up on the fact that I seemed indifferent to the baptism, so he had me come talk to him later.

We both had a very interesting theological discussion. Probably the best intellectual conversation I've had with anyone here in Oklahoma. I told him every one of the philosophies that I adhered to (all in opposition or conflict with Xianity) and he was very well versed in everyone of them. He even had the timeline of evolution in his office, and said he believed in it and that "Adam and Eve" is just a metaphor.

It was very refreshing to hear a man of the cloth speak intelligence. He also loaned me a book on the lost infancy books of the bible. Basically, they were accounts of the terrible and wicked things Jesus did as a youth. These books, Thomas in particular, contradicted the church's doctrines and message so they voted to have it omitted from the bible centuries ago.

The strange thing is, when this minister stands in front of the congregation and speaks, he is a different person. Very literal interpretations of the bible and very dogmatic. It's like he knows the truth/hypocrisy of Xtianity behind closed doors with those who are intelligent, but when speaking with his flock, he takes on the stereotypical close minded Xtian approach. He's a business man above all else I guess. It was very surreal.

[shikitohno]

I believe the reason many convert to Islam, is they want a "legitimate" reason, to separate themselves from mainstream society, and to be of the oppressed minority crowd, so they can not assimilate, and claim to be a victim.

Like who? The only two groups I could think of who might do this are inmates and African Americans. And they don't need to do it for those reasons. The first has separated itself from mainstream society in other ways, and the second claims to be an oppressed minority anyway.

[khalid]

I do think converting can have the quality of sedimenting an already probelmatised relationship to society as a whole. I have certainly come across this kind of convert in the U.K. Of course people do convert for less self serving reasons also.

[tom502]

One can see many examples of what I said. You see many convert women, suing places because they have headscarf issues, remember the drivers license and berka deal? And recently an Army man, says now his Muslim faith conflicts with his service and is trying to get out, and this is a new recruit. I can see the appeal of this, people want to be a part of some movement, that is at odds with the mainstream, and also like to use this to be an opressed minority, and thus play the opressed card. It's sorta like that South Park episode where Cartman fakes Tourettes. Just become a Muslim, and you get to dress differently, make demands at your work to facilitate your needs, and prayer area, if a woman, you can start wearing a berka, or a man, grow out a big beard, and if anyone gives you grief, you are being oppressed because you are a Muslim living in a redneck bigoted country.

[truthwolf1]

We had something like that in my state with Somali Taxi drivers kicking people out of their cabs if they smelled like alcohol and refusing to touch pork while working as grocery checkouts.

[tom502]

See, this the problem, they come here, and expect us to conform to them, while they don't have to conform to us. They wear their funny clothes, and that's fine, but if went to their country, we'd be forced to dress to their standards, yet they don't have to here. I read a thing not too long ago, about toilets I think in the UK, that Muslims don't sit, they stand on the toilet, on the seat, and stoop down, and they are complaining that it's not safe, and they need to make Muslim friendly toilets, which is basically a hole in the ground.

[Roo]

I would be careful with statements that could be construed as labeling Islam as an inferior religion.

The religion and its people, however, will see a lot of struggle in the future. Remember the Qur'an has never, ever been revised/reinterpreted in Arabic. That is why some of its teachings, such as jihad, are antiquated, yet extremists use them to promote their own political struggle. They abuse the name of Islam, and the vast vast majority of Muslims are against the extremists (and in many cases are powerless to combat them). Back in the 7th century, jihad was promoted against the pagan Arabs under the warrior prophet Mohammad and was necessary for the survival of Mohammad's teachings. It is harder to look up to Mohammad today, because his actions don't easily apply in the modern era (whereas Jesus' compassion can still be adhered to).

Christianity and its Bible has enjoyed many rewritings over the years, from the Vulgate to KJV and beyond. The Catholic Catechism itself is a living document which is modified as culture modernizes. Muslims don't have this, and need to rely on 7th century scripture. Islam is also very delocalized, with Muslims usually absorbing interpretations of individual Imams, which gives them nearly ultimate authority.

We don't need to create a resolution for non-secular states like Iran, they need to figure it out themselves.

As for Qur'an burning, those individuals are more than welcome to do that, but it is evident they fail to see the irony in how intertwined the three religions of the Book are. Yes, it will likely cause turmoil overseas. And I don't think Jesus would stand for a book burning, no matter whose book it is.

I'm only on the 1st page of this thread but I just had to step in and say: Raptor, KICK ASS post my friend. Well done.

[Roo]

Furious protesters in Muslim nations believe that the few nuts who are going to burn Qurans represent all of American culture. Fortunately, we in the United States would never stigmatize an entire culture based on the actions of a radical few

OK now I'm on page 2... I'll get through this eventually... But had to step again and give this editorial the highest praise. Nice work sgreger. Those words could not be more true. I like that link so much I'm thinking abouit making the rare facebook appreance with it... It's getting jacked. More people need to read this. WAY more. Good find buddy

[tom502]

One Koran burnin guy is not comparable to the 1000s of Islamic terror attacks that kill people every year(or month).

[sgreger1]

Your post reminded me of something. When my wife wanted to have our daughter baptized, we had to meet with her Methodist minister ahead of time. I guess the minister picked up on the fact that I seemed indifferent to the baptism, so he had me come talk to him later.

We both had a very interesting theological discussion. Probably the best intellectual conversation I've had with anyone here in Oklahoma. I told him every one of the philosophies that I adhered to (all in opposition or conflict with Xianity) and he was very well versed in everyone of them. He even had the timeline of evolution in his office, and said he believed in it and that "Adam and Eve" is just a metaphor.

It was very refreshing to hear a man of the cloth speak intelligence. He also loaned me a book on the lost infancy books of the bible. Basically, they were accounts of the terrible and wicked things Jesus did as a youth. These books, Thomas in particular, contradicted the church's doctrines and message so they voted to have it omitted from the bible centuries ago.

The strange thing is, when this minister stands in front of the congregation and speaks, he is a different person. Very literal interpretations of the bible and very dogmatic. It's like he knows the truth/hypocrisy of Xtianity behind closed doors with those who are intelligent, but when speaking with his flock, he takes on the stereotypical close minded Xtian approach. He's a business man above all else I guess. It was very surreal.

Yah ive read those ommited books about his youth. Crazy little bastard man. No one wanted to piss him off! But that message comflicts too much with their crazy message so they decided not to include it in the kjv bible. And ive met pastors like that too dude, they have to go to work loke anyone else. They gotta show up in uniform, go through the motions etc.

[tom502]

Christian Worshippers Attacked in Indonesia
Assailants stab, beat Christian worshippers outside of Indonesia's capital
The Associated Press
BEKASI, Indonesia September 13, 2010 (AP)

Indonesia's president ordered police to hunt down and arrest assailants who stabbed a Christian worshipper in the stomach and beat a minister in the head with a wooden plank as they headed to prayers.

Neither of the injuries appeared to be life-threatening.

No one claimed responsibility for Sunday's attacks. But suspicion immediately fell on Islamic hard-liners who have repeatedly warned members of the Batak Christian Protestant Church against worshipping on a field housing their now-shuttered church.

In recent months, they have thrown shoes and water bottles at the church members, interrupted sermons with chants of "Infidels!" and "Leave Now!" and dumped piles of feces on the land.

Local police Chief Imam Sugianto said Asia Sihombing, a worshipper, was on his way to the field when assailants jumped off a motorcycle and stabbed him in the stomach.

The Rev. Luspida Simanjuntak was smashed in the head as she tried to come to his aid.

"I was trying to help get him onto a motorcycle so we could get him to a hospital," she told reporters in the industrial city of Bekasi, 25 miles (40 kilometers) east of Jakarta.

She said the face of one of the assailants looked familiar.

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who relies heavily on Islamic parties in parliament, has been widely criticized in the media for failing to crack down on hard-liners.

But he immediately called on authorities to investigate and to hold accountable those responsible.

"We've questioned nine witnesses and have already identified the perpetrators," said local detective, Capt. Ade Arie. "But it's too early to comment or speculate on a motive."

Indonesia, a secular country of 237 million people, has more Muslims than any other in the world. Though it has a long history of religious tolerance, a small extremist fringe has become more vocal in recent years.

Leading the charge against the Batak Christians has been the Islamic Defenders Front, which is pushing for the implementation of Islamic-based laws in Bekasi and other parts of the nation.

They are known for smashing bars, attacking transvestites and going after those considered blasphemous with bamboo clubs and stones. Perpetrators are rarely punished or even questioned by police.

The front also pressured local authorities early this year to shutter the Batak church, located in a densley populated Mulsim area, saying the permit was granted without the required approval of residents.

The Christian worshippers have refused to back down. Every week, about 20 or so return to the field to pray, defying threats and intimidation.

[tom502]

The eternal flame of Muslim outrage
by Michelle Malkin
Creators Syndicate
Copyright 2010

Shhhhhhh, we’re told. Don’t protest the Ground Zero mosque. Don’t burn a Koran. It’ll imperil the troops. It’ll inflame tensions. The “Muslim world” will “explode” if it does not get its way, warns sharia-peddling imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. Pardon my national security-threatening impudence, but when is the “Muslim world” not ready to “explode”?

At the risk of provoking the ever-volatile Religion of Perpetual Outrage, let us count the little-noticed and forgotten ways.

Just a few months ago in Kashmir, faithful Muslims rioted over what they thought was a mosque depicted on underwear sold by street vendors. The mob shut down businesses and clashed with police over the blasphemous skivvies. But it turned out there was no need for Allah’s avengers to get their holy knickers in a bunch. The alleged mosque was actually a building resembling London’s St. Paul’s Cathedral. A Kashmiri law enforcement official later concluded the protests were “premeditated and organized to vitiate the atmosphere.”

Indeed, art and graphics have an uncanny way of vitiating the Muslim world’s atmosphere. In 1994, Muslims threatened German supermodel Claudia Schiffer with death after she wore a Karl Lagerfeld-designed dress printed with a saying from the Koran. In 1997, outraged Muslims forced Nike to recall 800,000 shoes because they claimed the company’s “Air” logo looked like the Arabic script for “Allah.” In 1998, another conflagration spread over Unilever’s ice cream logo — which Muslims claimed looked like “Allah” if read upside-down and backward (can’t recall what they said it resembled if you viewed it with 3D glasses).

Even more explosively, in 2002, an al-Qaida-linked jihadist cell plotted to blow up Bologna, Italy’s Church of San Petronio because it displayed a 15th century fresco depicting Mohammed being tormented in the ninth circle of Hell. For years, Muslims had demanded that the art come down. Counterterrorism officials in Europe caught the would-be bombers on tape scouting out the church and exclaiming, “May Allah bring it all down. It will all come down.”

That same year, Nigerian Muslims stabbed, bludgeoned or burned to death 200 people in protest of the Miss World beauty pageant — which they considered an affront to Allah. They shouted, “Allahu Akbar!” And “Down with beauty!” And “Miss World is sin!” Contest organizers fled out of fear of inflaming further destruction. When Nigerian journalist Isioma Daniel joked that Mohammed would have approved of the pageant and that “in all honesty, he would probably have chosen a wife from among them,” her newspaper rushed to print three retractions and apologies in a row. It didn’t stop Muslim vigilantes from torching the newspaper’s offices. A fatwa was issued on Daniel’s life by a Nigerian official in the sharia-ruled state of Zamfara, who declared that “the blood of Isioma Daniel can be shed. It is abiding on all Muslims wherever they are to consider the killing of the writer as a religious duty.” Daniel fled to Norway.

In 2005, British Muslims got all hot and bothered over a Burger King ice cream cone container whose swirly-texted label resembled, you guessed it, the Arabic script for “Allah.” The restaurant chain yanked the product in a panic and prostrated itself before the Muslim world. But the fast-food dessert had already become a handy radical Islamic recruiting tool. Rashad Akhtar, a young British Muslim, told Harper’s Magazine how the ice cream caper had inspired him: “Even though it means nothing to some people and may mean nothing to some Muslims in this country, this is my jihad. I’m not going to rest until I find the person who is responsible. I’m going to bring this country down.”

In 2007, Muslims combusted again in Sudan after an infidel elementary school teacher innocently named a classroom teddy bear “Mohammed.” Protesters chanted, “Kill her, kill her by firing squad!” and “No tolerance — execution!” She was arrested, jailed and faced 40 lashes for blasphemy before being freed after eight days. Not wanting to cause further inflammation, the teacher rushed to apologize: “I have great respect for the Islamic religion and would not knowingly offend anyone, and I am sorry if I caused any distress.”

And who could forget the global Danish cartoon riots of 2006 (instigated by imams who toured Egypt stoking hysteria with faked anti-Islam comic strips)? From Afghanistan to Egypt to Lebanon to Libya, Pakistan, Turkey and in between, hundreds died under the pretext of protecting Mohammed from Western slight, and brave journalists who stood up to the madness were threatened with beheading. It wasn’t really about the cartoons at all, of course. Little-remembered is the fact that Muslim bullies were attempting to pressure Denmark over the International Atomic Energy Agency’s decision to report Iran to the UN Security Council for continuing with its nuclear research program. The chairmanship of the council was passing to Denmark at the time. Yes, it was just another in a long line of manufactured Muslim explosions that were, to borrow a useful phrase, “premeditated and organized to vitiate the atmosphere.”

When everything from sneakers to stuffed animals to comics to frescos to beauty queens to fast-food packaging to undies serves as dry tinder for Allah’s avengers, it’s a grand farce to feign concern about the recruitment effect of a few burnt Korans in the hands of a two-bit attention-seeker in Florida. The eternal flame of Muslim outrage was lit a long, long time ago.