The Marketing of Madness: Are We All Insane?

[resnor]

Precious...did you have other problems associated with your depression? Like where I work, a kid has depression. Because he doesn't know how to deal with it, perhaps he's developed a pattern of avoidance, and perhaps some aggression. While the meds may not treat his depression, he needs to be on medication to control his aggression. He also may be on a medication to "control" his depression, so that we can work with him on coming to terms with whatever it was that caused his depression. If we don't "control" the aggression and depression, then there is virtually no way to peel back the layers to get down to his real issues. We would simply be dealing with his aggressive behaviors, and the true problem would simply go untreated.

[LaZeR]

xanax has helped me tremendously with anxiety and insomnia at night. .25 mg 3x daily and a .50 mg at night. The prozac and abilify, blaa, I wish to get off of them as I don't feel they do much.

[texastorm]

Oh, I agree, there is a real problem with doctors prescribing pills so routinely. However, a couple people in here were saying that placebos are just as effective, and therapy is just as effective. That's not necessarily true. For someone who doesn't really have a problem, then yes, therapy and placebos will be just as effective. Take a kid with legit ADHD...he can't simply sit through a therapy session. He needs to be on meds so that his ADHD will be controlled, thereby allowing a therapist to work with him, identifying the underlying problems, and eventually helping him to accept things, and learn how to cope, without using medication. With real problems, it's not an either or approach, it's a combination approach.

Completely disagree here. In my youth these kids were called "hyper-active" and rarely given any medication of any sort. Treatment was solely done with therapy and teaching the parents how to cope with there child. Now the parents dose the kids up and the kids never learn how to actually cope with their issues. The combination you speak of of taking meds while learning to cope is the exception, not the norm. So in an ideal world your suggested method would be great, but sadly the world never is an ideal place.

I was hyper-active, I learned to cope without the use of drugs. Even today I have issues taking pills for anything. I rarely even take a mild pain killer. I know my headache will go away on its own if I wait.

Pills never seems to hold a permanent answer.

[resnor]

Well, where I work work, we are dealing with aggressive kids. I'm talking about kids who would be doing jailtime if they were 17 years old. ADHD IS "attention deficit hyper-active disorder", so we are talking about hyper-active kids. You can disagree about the appropriateness of medicating them...hell, I felt the same way...until I worked in this field. I've seen these kids without their meds, and they are a mess. Without their meds, there is zero self-control. You cannot work with them, you cannot help them. You need to "control" their aggression, and their hyper-activity, if you want to have any chance at getting them to the point where they can self-control themselves. Not to mention, most of these kids parents were non-existent in working with them in their early formative years. Now, obviously, these kids I am working with are not "normal," and what we do with them doesn't really apply to "normal" people.

[precious007]

Precious...did you have other problems associated with your depression? Like where I work, a kid has depression. Because he doesn't know how to deal with it, perhaps he's developed a pattern of avoidance, and perhaps some aggression. While the meds may not treat his depression, he needs to be on medication to control his aggression. He also may be on a medication to "control" his depression, so that we can work with him on coming to terms with whatever it was that caused his depression. If we don't "control" the aggression and depression, then there is virtually no way to peel back the layers to get down to his real issues. We would simply be dealing with his aggressive behaviors, and the true problem would simply go untreated.

As they say not even doctors would know what is the exact cause of someone's depression or anxiety.

I had only depression and anxiety (sometimes severe anxiety) .... what do you mean agression?!

I think in my case the anxiety is more post-traumatic-stress-disorder (PTSD) .... due to a few unhappy moments in my teenage and child life:

I had my boy at 18
My dad died when I was 15
I moved from 5 different counties to another while I was a kid..
My twin brother had two surgeries on the intestinal tract

These are just a few elements to point out that lead to depression (at least that what the doctors told me)

:^)

[resnor]

Aggression...like attacking people. LOL Actually, it's funny that you mention PTSD, cause alot of the kids I work with have that. Alot of their problems, like aggressive behaviors, are how the kids have learned to cope with their trauma. It's not the correct way to cope, but until you can control their outward actions, aggression, oppositional behavior, etc, there is virtually no way to teach the kid how to properly come to terms with whatever happened to him. So, medication is needed to control those outward behaviors, so that we can deal with the inward problems.

[sgreger1]

I agree that they over-prescribe meds to everyone (including those who don't need it), but saying that no drugs ever benefit anyone with psych problems isn't quite true. I personally know quite a few people with bi-polar etc that were able to regain their lives after starting a medication regimen. It allowed them to steady things out instead of being either super manic or super depressive.

But 99% fo the time I think they should spend more time finding the cause of the illness rather than trying to treat it's symptoms. Our national medical strategy is to put bandaids on everything and to ever actually fix the problem.


Still, medication does have a place in medicine, even in psychiatrics, but I agree that they will prescribe you an anti-depressant if you even say you don't feel good on any given day. If you ask they WILL give it to you, even if there is nothing really wrong with you.

[precious007]

Aggression...like attacking people. LOL Actually, it's funny that you mention PTSD, cause alot of the kids I work with have that. Alot of their problems, like aggressive behaviors, are how the kids have learned to cope with their trauma. It's not the correct way to cope, but until you can control their outward actions, aggression, oppositional behavior, etc, there is virtually no way to teach the kid how to properly come to terms with whatever happened to him. So, medication is needed to control those outward behaviors, so that we can deal with the inward problems.

Are you a therapist?

No I am not aggressive at all but I used to have a slightly aggressive in the teen years between 15 - 18 ... nothing serious though.... I liked getting involved in fights at the clubs I went to, we used to go the whole neighbourhood and usually ended up in a fight with another neighbourhood lol ...The only person I've been really agressive to was myself.... lol ... smoking was one of the agresssions :^)

But 99% fo the time I think they should spend more time finding the cause of the illness rather than trying to treat it's symptoms

What is not understood here, really is that depression and anxiety and any type of mental issue is the illness of the soul. (the brain is completely healthy, apart from psychosis when there are slight small changes in the brain's shape)

Finding the cause, I would agree with you. But the patient itself has to find the cause on his/her own .... if I would find the cause or you or anybody else it would not benefit him/her at all. I went for years thinking of the past and trying to find solution for the present (WRONG!!!!!) lol that's the stupidest thing a person can do with their life, to live either in the past or in the future and expect a happy present day............ it'll completely drive you insane....

The only way to treat a severe depression is to start living a healthy life, stop thinking about the past or the future and focusing on the the present day and living your life one step at the time. (that's the ONLY way to do it) and I'm speaking out of my experience.

Can't remember who said this ... it was either Budhha or Mark Twain (I love their quotes) ..... Happiness means health and a bad memory (sarcastic but true) If you'd keep stocking up and recalling your bad memories then you definitely ****ed up that what's causing the anxiety and depression ... thinking over and over again about the bad things in the past and never finding a solution ... the solution again, is to start getting a life, living a life of your own....and trying to get better every year.... :^)

[resnor]

I got my degree in Childhood Studies...part of that degree was taking several psychology courses. So, no, I am not a therapist, but I work closely with therapists at my job, and I have numerous conversations with them about these sorts of things. I have a pretty good understanding of the theory, and the practice, of giving meds, at least in the field that I work in.

[resnor]

Sgregor...the reason for giving medication to treat symptoms is that you can control the symptoms, thereby allowing you to treat, or address, the actual problem. You may need to medicate a depressed person, so that you can get them to a neutral space, so you then can start dealing with whatever problem lead to their depression. Now, I realize that many people simply pop a pill to try to alleviate their depression, and they don't follow through with getting help addressing the real issue, but that isn't necessarily the fault of the person prescribing the medication.

[sgreger1]

I love how people think there even is a "normal", there is a general baseline of what we consider normal, but when people are born with "defects" it really means mutations, some of which could be beneficial, some of which may not be. A child born blind excells at playing piano because his ears work better, an autistic kid who can't handle social situations but can do math better than most humans etc etc. These are all evolutionary traits and part of the larger system, this is not something we need to treat or get rid of necessarily, and any efforts we take to "rid" ourselves of it will likely fail. Trying to convince nature to leave the human species exactly as it is and never allow mutations is a losing battle, which is why I think a lot of medicine has focused more on treatment than cures. We just aren't at the point as a species to where we can cure things, that would require us to expertly be able to tame the human genetic code and custom tailor genes and master the control of stem cells before we can stop these mutations that lead to developmental issues in children etc. We are a long ways away from that.


Depression is a problem that is particularly heavy in modern cities and such (san fran, new york etc), it just comes with the habitat. We don't worry about survival any more and live pretty comfortably, therefore nature allows mutations that don't necessarilly benefit the survival of the creature but the survival of the whole species. Once man moved into the cities and stopped being hunter gatherers, we see this trend where survival doesn't mean necessarily being good at hunting any more. Survival now relies on the whole group of people rather than the individuals. Someone who goes out and hunts is contributing in the same way as an autistic person who stays home and solves math problems or creates art is. The husband who goes out and hunts is being just as productive in society as the stay at home mom etc. I gues my point is that everyone has a role, even those we don't consider "normal", which is a fake concept anyways.

To discuss the science would enrage a lot of people here so I won't go into it, but sometimes thing we consider to be "defects" are actually just nature trying new things or implementing a new trait to a certain demographic of the species, for the benefit of us all. This is similar to the debate of "But if evolution is real, than why are there gay people since they are genetically programmed to not pro-create!" The answer being that evolution serves much larger goals than just procreating from generation to generation. In a society where food is plentifull and you aren't spending all day trying to stay alive, sometimes it is good to take part of the population out of the hunting/pro-creation pool so they can focus on more important secondary tasks like the arts and philosophy and such.


Not making any definitive statements about anything, just saying that we don't live in a vaccuum here, nature is doing this on purpose and doesn't care about us as "individuals". Your next kid may have autism but that may, in the long run, benefit the human race. Not everyone is meant to go out and gather food/resources all day, some are ment to stay home and be productive in other ways.

ADD may be a response to the ever increasing digital fast-paced world we find yourselves in. For people to keep up and stay sane they have to think faster, multi-task more etc. This may be why we see extra-hyper kids, it may be a byproduct of a more modern fast-paced lifestyle and nature may just be trying to cope with it. Not sure, but if I had a kid with one of these "conditions" I would not view it as such a bad thing, there is a reason why they are here and although that reason may not have been what you want, it doesn't make their place in society any less special or relevent just because they are "abnormal" to our standards (which are subjective and not representative of what is actually "normal" in any way).

10 years ago people thought being gay wasn't "normal" in that it must be some defect that we should seek to "cure", we've moved on since then (some people anyways lol) and now know that it is not in any way a defect but instead more of an "advantage in a different direction". Not having to worry about kids frees up lots of time to solve the rest of humanities problems. Just saying, what we call "normal" and what nature calls "normal" are two different things. We need to be more cognisant of what we are, animals in a habitat who's genetic code is constantly fluctuating and revising itself in an attempts to better adapt. All things you see in the gene pool are a result of the human race evolving and trying to stay alive, sometimes it has odd results but it's all part of the plan.

[sgreger1]

Sgregor...the reason for giving medication to treat symptoms is that you can control the symptoms, thereby allowing you to treat, or address, the actual problem. You may need to medicate a depressed person, so that you can get them to a neutral space, so you then can start dealing with whatever problem lead to their depression. Now, I realize that many people simply pop a pill to try to alleviate their depression, and they don't follow through with getting help addressing the real issue, but that isn't necessarily the fault of the person prescribing the medication.

Oh trust me, I know all too well what you speak of. The fact that we can't get people to take their meds as prescribed causes a huge problem because it ruins any data we may take about people. If the drug didn't work in 70% of people, how many of those people truly took it as directed?

I work with nurses and my mother is a nurse and my job is specific to pharmaceuticals, additionally I have been to psychiatrists and have been prescribed the types of depression meds we are talking about here. The way my therapist explained it to me was the same as you expained it, the medication is jsut to kind of calm things down for a second so the depressed person can start going to work again or at least function, and then while that is happening the therapist will work to solve the underlying issue so hopefully the medication regiment won't be forever.


I do not believe drugs are bad, just that they are over used. But I also realize that there is a reason these drugs sell so much and it goes beyond simple corruption in the drug/medical industry, they are popular because millions of people live reasonably normal lives because of these drugs. I'm not saying they don't help, because they do for some, but be carefull because the doctors are a little too quick to prescribe them to people who may not need them in my personal experience. If I took every drug that has been prescribed to me, I would be taking bipolar drugs and anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds. Luckily I stopped taking those and wswitched to something alittle more natural, and that seems to have the same if not better effect thanthe drugs, so for me that is what works but I realize that for many, these pills are the only way they can live a reasonably normal life. Not trying to make anyone who is takin these pills sound like a weirdo or a "sheep" because that is certainly not the case with many people on these medications.

[resnor]

How many blind children do you know that play piano better than a non-blind child? Sure, their hearing is more acute, but playing piano involves far more than simply hearing. A deaf person could easily become a great piano player...far easier than a blind person. I took piano for like 12 years...

[heders]

The big pharmaceutical companies are just a big industry. Lots, and lots of money to be made. They don't care even the slightest how people feel (well, for the most; of course there are exceptions, but to them - as a company - money is more important). Negative emotions is a lesson to be learned, nothing else. I believe that even people suffering from what we call 'insanity', is people that have gotten stuck in the personal (ego) and materialized world. Most other negative emotions like anxiety, depression, aggression and so on; I think is the cause of the ego, our self image. When I write ego, I don't mean 'to be egoistic' - no, I mean the collection of thoughts and our conditioning we have gone through in a lifetime that has made us believe there is a 'me' (self-image). We see thoughts and emotions as complete reality and miss that we are not what we are aware of, but the one who is aware. And what is that? Awareness. Silent, pure awareness. Thoughts isn't reality, no matter how convincing they might seem, or how many you share your thoughts with. The reality 'out there' (which really doesn't exist) does not need something to define it. It is what it is. Emotions are just motion of energy through the body. Different frequencies of the energy makes a different emotion. Positive emotions like love, happiness, is energy of a higher frequency, and negative emotions are lower vibrating frequencies.

I would also like to point out that our true nature is love and happiness. When we feel negative, it means that we are lost in the personal and have clouded our true self in some way.

Also, 'now' is all that there is. Our mind creates stories for the future (scary thoughts: anxiety), and also makes up stories about the past (guilt, shame, regret, aggression, depression and so on). Once we fully understand what we are, our personal, made up self image will fall away, and all the problems we thought we had (and all the mental disorders we have been conditioned to think we had) just disappears. Since the mind stops going to the past to look for a self-image, and seeking rescue or dreading the future, no problems or negative emotions can really exist.

Because of the way we have been conditioned, we have lost ourselves in the mind, the personal and forgot about what's real. It's like we are living in a dream world. And negative thoughts that is about everything except for the NOW of course will make a negative response in the body.

I'm tired as hell so I don't know if what I wrote makes any sense... I have studied a lot of spirituality, and had lots of personal experience in anxiety, stress, panic attacks, and so on. I am now almost fully recovered due to my new way of living life.

When I suffered, I got Zoloft, which didn't help at all. I just felt like a zombie. When I said that it didn't work, the doctor put me on a higher dose. Did it help more? Nah...

I also got a pretty heavy benzodiazepine (Oxazepam). Those made me calm, sure. But they didn't help me at all in the long run. No, I learned that negative emotions is a lesson to be learned. They are not there to kill us, but to help us see what is real. In society, we have been conditioned to see negative emotions as something bad and something to get rid of. And at the same time, pharmaceutical companies and doctors scream that their pills is the cure for everything. With so many people feeling bad and being conditioned, the companies makes a HUGE profit.

Ok I have to stop writing now...

[precious007]

@sgregre

I partially agree with what you're saying but .....

1) I hope you're not saying that depression is a normal thing, and definitely it doesn't and won't benefit nobody.
2)

10 years ago people thought being gay wasn't "normal" in that it must be some defect that we should seek to "cure", we've moved on since then (some people anyways lol) and now know that it is not in any way a defect but instead more of an "advantage in a different direction".

How would a gay person be an advantage to anything on this planet? I am not against them, they just like any other human. I don't care they choose to **** ass but .... still how could they be an advantage?

3)

Your next kid may have autism but that may, in the long run, benefit the human race.

Sure, having a kid with autism is a huge problem for any individual, but again how would that kid benefit the society, world, nature...you mean it ?!