What will the future hold?

[ODurren]

I probably didn't look hard enough and more than likely this board is littered with posts much like this. However what is everyone's opinion on what might happen in the future regarding tobacco use overall?

Of course us Americans took a hit with the Obama administration serving the largest tax hike in national history on cigarettes/miniature cigars. They say its a health concern but 90% of the truth its just another form of them gaining a good chuck of money fast most likely. Hence led to companies like Philip Morris introducing the American populous to this "new and amazing" spiteless tobacco known as 'Snus'. (which by the looks of it led most people around here to do a lil more research and find out this new 'snus' is 200 years old and originated in Sweden, as tastes a crapton better!)

It looks like this might be potentially the way America is going. Slow start but I see it gaining momentum. Do you think that me might see limitation/taxation on these newly created devices? Do you foresee a major change that might lead you to place that 2 thousand can order and stockpile for the next 3 years?

There are alot of other people on this forum that are on the other side of the world as well! Lets hear your opinions/stories about whats been going on by your local government/magistrate/tribe/etc!

[deebocools]

It's hard to predict for sure but I am mostly optimistic.

things to consider:

The obama administration can only last 8 years, so even if they prove to be totally anti-tobacco(ironic since obama is a smoker), there could be a more enlightened administration(as well as local officials) in the decades afterwards.

Higher taxes on smoked tobacco lead people to snus. The more people are using snus and other smokeless by the time they get around to taxing it, the more opposition there will be.

During this time of increased snus use/production, and while smoked tobacco is serving the purpose of a red herring, more research can be done on harm reduction, and harm reduction as a general theory can gain more momentum(which happens everyday)

...so it'll be a long fight that I imagine will last my entire life(21 now); but snus will be as mainstream as cigarettes, and perhaps used more, by north americans just as it is swedes. The rest of the world will follow suit slowly but surely.

[justintempler]

Florida just passed a new tobacco tax.

Cigarettes a buck a pack
Smokless a buck an ounce
Cigars got exempted because we have a major cigar lobby from south Florida.

Snus will be a major target for taxes because most people are uneducated and think it is as dangerous as cigarettes. Education is an uphill battle against so much misinformation from the anti tobacco lobby.

Even in Norway 40% of people think snus is as bad as cigarettes. :roll:

[RobsanX]

Florida just passed a new tobacco tax.

Cigarettes a buck a pack
Smokless a buck an ounce
Cigars got exempted because we have a major cigar lobby from south Florida.

Snus will be a major target for taxes because most people are uneducated and think it is as dangerous as cigarettes. Education is an uphill battle against so much misinformation from the anti tobacco lobby.

Even in Norway 40% of people think snus is as bad as cigarettes. :roll:

This is why politics is such bullshit, and people start having tea parties. It's all about taking your money, getting special interest money, and getting re-elected to stay in power. Worthless shitbags!!!

[Kvlt]

It's hard to predict for sure but I am mostly optimistic.

things to consider:

The obama administration can only last 8 years, so even if they prove to be totally anti-tobacco(ironic since obama is a smoker), there could be a more enlightened administration(as well as local officials) in the decades afterwards.

Higher taxes on smoked tobacco lead people to snus. The more people are using snus and other smokeless by the time they get around to taxing it, the more opposition there will be.

During this time of increased snus use/production, and while smoked tobacco is serving the purpose of a red herring, more research can be done on harm reduction, and harm reduction as a general theory can gain more momentum(which happens everyday)

...so it'll be a long fight that I imagine will last my entire life(21 now); but snus will be as mainstream as cigarettes, and perhaps used more, by north americans just as it is swedes. The rest of the world will follow suit slowly but surely.

I actually want less people to know about Snus. I wish the American companies wouldn't make it, and Swedish Snus would only be available by online order.
Why you might ask? The less people that know about it, the less likely it will be to get governments attention.

Look at all the smokers pissed off about the tobacco taxes. Still didn't prevent anything. Even with this Obama tax hike, the next guy won't abolish it. He might not raise it, but still, it won't be going down.

[Old Frothingslosh]

I think I agree with you, Kvlt, although if I wouldn't have heard about it, I'd still be smoking.

BTW, since Northerner put a warehouse in PA, I was charged 6% sales tax on my last order.

[TropicalBob]

I think the future is not looking good at all. On May 21, the U.S. House passed a bill that will substantially impact our snus orders from Sweden. A quick read of this bill turned my hair white. We are for sure in for far more expensive products, assuming we can get them at all.

No postal delivery, that's for sure. Branded packages. Collection of full taxes and duties. Etc.

Hope I'm wrong about how bad this is, but check out this bill now headed to the Senate for a final vote:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1676

Looks to me like Congress intends to round up all tobacco users and send them to the corral of the local store, where products can be regulated and taxes collected.

[elmos]

the future

I think I got this right. Politicians want to look good. They want you to think they care. They become drunk with power. If they don't pass a bill with thier name on it, they think we will think they are not working. Whats a good bill to introduce now? Anti tobacco. One surgeon general said cigarettes were more adictive than heroin. that means you will have a bitch quiting, You buy the smokes, you pay the tax. the gov gets more money. :evil: Now we had the tobacco settlement. Who got rich? the bottom feeding lawyers. We are adults choosing an adult topic. We are however looked at like children. It took my brother only a little while to die of cancer. Where was the medical drain? Look, I am not advocating smoking, dipping, drinking, etc. It's the hypocrisay that gets me. Its also big gov. sticking thier nose in. If I was a politician I would not care about laws. Hell, I would just take a tax payer paid junket to sweden and buy my snuss. We are stupid because we put up with this crap. If you think snussing, smoking, etc. is wrong DON'T DO IT! Besides, I never heard of second hand snus. I love my snuss and I love my pipe. I love when people come up to me and tell me they think its great I quit cigerettes,
In most cases they are sixty pounds overweight. No cancer for them, just a nice heart attack. HYPOCRISAY! (my spelling) When I explained to my doctor how I quit he said good. I explained the product. He said good. Thats all I need. GOOD SNUSSING. :wink:

[spirit72]

So assuming that it passes the Senate, and assuming Obama signs it, how soon would this take effect I wonder?

I didn't see anything about taxation of purchases made abroad, but prohibiting it being shipped via USPS leaves only UPS, and that is gonna be expensive.

Either way, I'm gonna need a bigger freezer.

[justintempler]

So assuming that it passes the Senate, and assuming Obama signs it, how soon would this take effect I wonder?

I didn't see anything about taxation of purchases made abroad, but prohibiting it being shipped via USPS leaves only UPS, and that is gonna be expensive.

Either way, I'm gonna need a bigger freezer.

SEC. 8. EFFECTIVE DATE.

(a) In General- Except as provided in subsection (b), this Act shall take effect on the date that is 90 days after the date of enactment of this Act.

Another thing, unless there is a foreign company that is willing to jump through the necessary hoops to pay the taxes, say goodbye to any brands that might infringe on US trademarks. Lucky Strike, Pall Mall, Camel, and Marlboro.

RJR Reynolds won't take too kindly to an American company importing Camel from JTI and selling it in direct competition to it's own brand here in the states.

[Code2]

RE: House bill

Thanks for the info, TropicalBob. This is truly insane.

"Directs the ATF Director to create regional contraband tobacco
trafficking teams and a Tobacco Intelligence Center to monitor
and coordinate tobacco diversion investigations."

We were once "the land of the free", but I'm afraid those days are
long gone. At least my TN congresswoman, Marsha Blackburn (R)
was one of the very few to vote NO (as was Ron Paul).

[Mohave]

The effect of HR1676 is being vastly UNDERSTATED on snusers discussion boards. I don't think they understand.

After passage and implementation you will not be able to order snus by any means at all forever for delivery within the USA.

It will be a felony punishable by three years in federal prison to deliver them to you in violation of the act. UPS is not willing to go to prison to bring your snus. It is not just a matter of paying tax. The intent is to completely eliminate all tobacco sales through phone or internet orders, and it is very effectively designed to accomplish that through multiple means. "Common carriers" such as UPS and FedEx will no longer be able to deliver under the intentionally impossible very elaborate age and identity verification procedures required at both ends. They have said so. Mail will not deliver. "Tobacco Intellegence Teams" of federal agents are to be created and funded at $8.5 million per year to find and jail violators who send or transport or deliver. Oh yes they can.

It is a complete and total cutoff of all consumer supply. Obama is an enthusiastic supporter, and will sign it with great fanfare in a White House ceremony with "health" groups announcing the great thing he is doing "for the children." When it is implemented, it's over for anyone in the US. Once it becomes law, it will never be repealed. No chance. None. The vote in the House was 397 to 11.

Read the text of the bill. The whole bill.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...bill=h111-1676

http://www.nacsonline.com/NACS/NEWS/.../PR032409.aspx

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...lo8JwD98APQL80

[justintempler]

Mohave,

I understand your concern, but I don't things are as black and white as you make them out to be.

There is a Exception for smokeless.

SEC. 2A. DELIVERY SALES.
.....
`(d) Delivery-

`(1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in paragraph (2), no delivery seller may sell or deliver to any consumer, or tender to any common carrier or other delivery service, any cigarettes or smokeless tobacco pursuant to a delivery sale unless, in advance of the sale, delivery, or tender--

`(A) any cigarette or smokeless tobacco excise tax that is imposed by the State in which the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco are to be delivered has been paid to the State;

`(B) any cigarette or smokeless tobacco excise tax that is imposed by the local government of the place in which the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco are to be delivered has been paid to the local government; and

`(C) any required stamps or other indicia that such excise tax has been paid are properly affixed or applied to the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco.

`(2) EXCEPTION- Paragraph (1) does not apply to a delivery sale of smokeless tobacco if the law of the State or local government of the place where the smokeless tobacco is to be delivered requires or otherwise provides that delivery sellers collect the excise tax from the consumer and remit the excise tax to the State or local government, and the delivery seller complies with the requirement.

And our news media report distorts the facts (nothing new here)

... Private delivery companies already have agreed not to ship tobacco products while the Postal Service continues to deliver products purchased over the Internet....

WRONG

Private delivery companies agreed not to ship cigarettes (not tobacco products.)

Directly from UPS:

Packages containing tobacco or tobacco products, as those terms are variously defined under applicable state law (“Tobacco Product Shipments”), are accepted for transportation only from shippers who are licensed and authorized to ship tobacco and tobacco products pursuant to applicable laws. Tobacco Product Shipments shipped to a consumer will only be accepted for transportation as a contractual service. However, because UPS prohibits shipments of cigarettes to consumers under any circumstances, UPS does not offer a contractual service for the delivery of cigarettes to consumers.

Yes if the law passes it's going to a pain in the ass for companies like GetSnus and Northerner (US warehouse) but they will still be allowed to sell smokeless (snus, snuff, dip) and people in high tax states that are use to getting snus for $3.00 will be paying $8.00 or more.

Yes we will get screwed if this bill passes, but we won't be cutoff from all sales, we'll just have to pay thru the ass for it.

[Mohave]

There is a Exception for smokeless.

Nope. Sorry to say it is not likely to be an exception for anything we would care about.

Yours is an intriguing read on it, and I'd like to believe it could somehow possibly mean that, but I think it is very likely that you are mistaken. That smokeless exception in 2A(d)(2) specifically and exclusively refers to the matter of how and when tax is to be collected (usually in advance at time of sale before picked up for shipment) in 2A(d)(1) immediately above it, and is therefore not an exception to the plethora of other byzantine provisions of the act, such as the ludicrous identification and age verification requirements using approved government databases upon delivery specified in 2A(b)(4), for example. The exception is written to avoid conflict with an individual state's laws on how and when their state taxes are taken. It appears quite clear to me that it does not reference other provisions in the rest of the draconian act in making that exception. It is only an exception to that paragraph, and is not particularly important except to avoid making a state change its individual tax procedure. You have to carefully follow the indentations of cascading subparagraphs to note the severe limitation on the scope of that esoteric "exception."

I'd sure like to be wrong about this, but the plain text says:

EXCEPTION- Paragraph (1) does not apply to a delivery sale of smokeless tobacco if the law of the State or local government

It says what "does not apply" is Paragraph (1). I don't care a rat's ass about that particular Paragraph (1), under Section 2A(d). I care a whole hella lot about a big honkin' sheetload of other paragraphs in Weiner's "PACT Act" collectively designed to make "internet trafficking" in any tobacco product (other than cigars) impossible any which way.

Please make me wrong. Please. Dinner in Las Vegas is on me for the fine outstanding gentleman or lady who does that. Please.

On the other hand, the quotation you supplied from the UPS site on their current policy is indeed worded in a way that is a lot more encouraging for snus and snuff. I doubt it will stay that way for long after this monster becomes law, but thanks for digging it up.

[HK11]

.."in 1773, after the British issued the Tea Tax, members of the militant group known as "The Sons of Liberty" took control of a British sea vessel carrying tea, and dumped all of the tea into Boston Harbor. The event came to be known as "The Boston Tea Party" and resulted in the British issuing the Intolerable Acts, which basically authorized officials to take all means necessary to control the colonies."

Governments never learn.