No More EU To EU Snus Sales! (EU Members Please Read!)

[muddyfunkstar]

That will never happen

Well, if it did, you'd be straight out of the EU like a shot

[punkka]

I was happily sick with flu away from the comp and today this hits me. Trying to order snus from Northerner like so many times before, and I see something not is not right. No tax. OK then I see flag - shipping from US, then I start checking... then I realize we all have been uberfuc***. I went into reading what happened, and how can they do something this big,this un-democratic, as banning of the snus purchases EU-EU really is and believe me I thought I was smart, but not THIS smart. I just don't get it.
It is like EU become serious dictatorship country, overnight changes without previous notices, all major organisations dealing with the issue of snus sales just tighten their ass-cheeks and informed us nothing.
Actually I am not surprised at EU regulations, more or less all of them are not thought out well and it looks like EU is bunch of politicians wannabes, that have little knowledge about specific matters - really no surprise there. I am surprised to see that major player is anticancer organisation from Finland. Why don't they really grow a pair and take an effort and start changing cigarette legislation? Being in the field of lung cancer genetics for over a decade - as far as my knowledge goes, I see little or no association with snus consumption and cancer and plenty with tobacco smoking and cancer. But we all know that, right?
I think now would be the time for all the sellers, providers, manufacturers and followed by us, consumers enlighten those political asses that we want snus, and that we want to have the same choice as we would if we would smoke. The choice of buying it or not buying it - that should depend on us and not on Brussels, Finland or any other player in this story. I want to get a PROPER explanation on the matter. I want to know why I'm less important as an EU citizen as my fellow smoker is ?

Ok, i made my peace time for my new pouch.

Be well all of you

[khalid]

Thanks Khalid, however relaxing the snus ban I´d take with a fistful of salt, remember how small and insignificant Sweden is in this nightmare bureaucracy we call EU.

Even if they would discuss it, it would take years.

I am also very skeptical about the possibilities of ending the snus ban but I keep hearing optimistic noises so....I remain hopeful.

[Snusdog]

The swedes are specifically prohibited from exporting Snus to the E.U, this is the issue.

That was my point exactly. It is not illegal for individuals to have snus but it is illegal to export it to say a store in London to sell. Internet sales have hitherto worked on a loophole that they were not exporters but selling to individuals. That loophole was challenged in Finland and closed. A internet site selling to a person in London is now considered in the same terms as a shop that is actually in London.

Again my hunch is that the challenge in Finland concerned how the law understood an internet site..............not a generic is it legal to export snus. This is how GN (a manufacturer) is able to continue its direct sales to customers in the same way a shop in Sweden can sell snus to you if you actually go to the shop in Sweden. The manufacturer is legally grounded or tethered to the country of production and thus cannot be considered as a shop in another country

Just my hunch

[precious007]

That was my point exactly. It is not illegal for individuals to have snus but it is illegal to export it to say a store in London to sell. Internet sales have hitherto worked on a loophole that they were not exporters but selling to individuals. That loophole was challenged in Finland and closed. A internet site selling to a person in London is now considered in the same terms as a shop that is actually in London.

Again my hunch is that the challenge in Finland concerned how the law understood an internet site..............not a generic is it legal to export snus. This is how GN (a manufacturer) is able to continue its direct sales to customers in the same way a shop in Sweden can sell snus to you if you actually go to the shop in Sweden. The manufacturer is legally grounded or tethered to the country of production and thus cannot be considered as a shop in another country

Just my hunch

I don't get this dog

is it illegal to sell or export (or both)

because selling is different from exporting as far as I know......

[Snusdog]

I don't get this dog

is it illegal to sell or export (or both)

because selling is different from exporting as far as I know......

It is illegal to sell snus in many of the EU countries..................... therefore it is illegal for stores in those countries to carry snus.............. and therefore it is illegal for Swedish companies to export snus to those stores.

The glitch in the law was that internet sites were not in those countries nor were they exporting snus for sale in those countries. Rather, they are located in Sweden and selling to individuals (which is legal).

What seems to me to have happened in Finland is that the court upheld a reading of the current law that now defines an internet company in the same terms as it defines a brick and mortar store. Thus to sell snus over the internet to a person in London is seen as exactly the same as having a store that is actually in London selling snus (which is illegal).


Another way of putting it is:

Before last week, internet sales were defined in terms of the termination of the sale. You bought snus from Northerner (which is located in Sweden where snus sales are legal and thus everything is fine)

What changed is that a court has now said that the law defines an internet sale in terms of the origin of the sale (not the termination). Thus you, sitting at a computer in Romania, bought snus while in Romania, which is illegal.

The deciding factor in the eyes of EU law has shifted then from:

Where did you buy your snus from (Northerner in Sweden)

to

from where did you buy your snus (sitting at my computer in Romania)


It is simply a matter of which end of the string is most important



Hope this helps

[Snusdog]

Mind you that was just step one

That was just a Finish court's ruling on EU law.

What I think caused the ban on all EU shipments of snus is that SM got wind that the same anti-tobacco group is planning to prosecute this case in other EU nations using other internet sites.

They already have one member court that has upheld their reading..........thus there is precedence.

Their goal is to define EU tobacco policy one member court at a time....................on the eve of a possible loosing of the EU snus policy.................thus undercutting the very legal basis assumed by the new directive's loosing

How? If the new directive's plan to loosens its policy on snus is based on certain assumptions held under the operational procedures of the old directive................and those assumptions are found to be illegal................then the basis of the new looser policies are null and void.

[khalid]

Mind you that was just step one

That was just a Finish court's ruling on EU law.

What I think caused the ban on all EU shipments of snus is that SM got wind that the same anti-tobacco group is planning to prosecute this case in other EU nations using other internet sites.

They already have one member court that has upheld their reading..........thus there is precedence.

Their goal is to define EU tobacco policy one member court at a time....................on the eve of a possible loosing of the EU snus policy.................thus undercutting the very legal basis assumed by the new directive's loosing

How? If the new directive's plan to loosens its policy on snus is based on certain assumptions held under the operational procedures of the old directive................and those assumptions are found to be illegal................then the basis of the new looser policies are null and void.

I wish we had more info. I imagine though you are right that, in advance of the review of the directive on tobacco products, hostile anti tobacco forces are taking preemptive measures. On the plus side, I guess this means that it is still all to play for.

With regard internet stores, I doubt that these will survive regardless of the outcome, whether run by manufacturers or third parties.

[precious007]

What changed is that a court has now said that the law defines an internet sale in terms of the origin of the sale (not the termination). Thus you, sitting at a computer in Romania, bought snus while in Romania, which is illegal.

That's what I thought as well, thanks for clearing this up !

[GN Tobacco Sweden AB]

Here is more info for you Khalid for you Snusdog and for all



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Finnish 'Cancer Group' Claim Halts EU Snus Sales
Published on April 3rd, 2011 00:10
Author :Schomberg
Published in Ireland


Original source: Politics.ie

An anonymous "cancer company" in Finland filed a suit against Swedish Snus for selling the smokeless tobacco product to Finnish customers through mail order and have apparently won their case, leading to the entire EU wide sales being stopped. Apparently now, this had raised the eyebrows of Brussels who are "investigating" the matter. Naturally, all Swedish mailorders selling snus are now panicking and stopped all sales for fear of a similar outcome. EU Swedish Snus Ban! Now, I of course realise the risks with any form of tobacco, but snus has been scruitinised by scientists in the US, the EU and Sweden for a while now with results that didn't seem to satisify many people. The cancer risk from snus is tiny (snus cans carry the warning ""Can affect your health negatively" and not "may cause this or that") and many people, like myself, used snus to quit smoking. I kicked a 10 year habit on my first go with snus. Personally, I think snus should be available all over the EU. The cigarette companies and the people who make products like Nicorette of course won't be too please about it, but... Kenneth Warner, director of the University of Michigan Tobacco Research Network, Quote: The Swedish government has studied this stuff to death, and to date, there is no compelling evidence that it has any adverse health consequences. ... Whatever they eventually find out, it is dramatically less dangerous than smoking Should this be available in Ireland?

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[sirloot]

Yes it should be available in Eire .. long ago are the days of pipe tobacco and whiskey punch ! ok well i still enjoy a whiskey now and again :P

and heres yer sales slogan : The vikings come to Ireland again .. this time Bearing Odens Extreeeeeeme Snus !

[GN Tobacco Sweden AB]

Yes it should be available in Eire .. long ago are the days of pipe tobacco and whiskey punch ! ok well i still enjoy a whiskey now and again :P

and heres yer sales slogan : The vikings come to Ireland again .. this time Bearing Odens Extreeeeeeme Snus !

Yessss

[Brettv]

Snusdog..question does this then mean that if for example I have orders for snus paid for from outside the EU and shipped inside the EU this is then legal, according to the latest precedent?

That would be quite cool

[Mordred]

It is illegal to sell snus in many of the EU countries..................... therefore it is illegal for stores in those countries to carry snus.............. and therefore it is illegal for Swedish companies to export snus to those stores.

The glitch in the law was that internet sites were not in those countries nor were they exporting snus for sale in those countries. Rather, they are located in Sweden and selling to individuals (which is legal).

What seems to me to have happened in Finland is that the court upheld a reading of the current law that now defines an internet company in the same terms as it defines a brick and mortar store. Thus to sell snus over the internet to a person in London is seen as exactly the same as having a store that is actually in London selling snus (which is illegal).


Another way of putting it is:

Before last week, internet sales were defined in terms of the termination of the sale. You bought snus from Northerner (which is located in Sweden where snus sales are legal and thus everything is fine)

What changed is that a court has now said that the law defines an internet sale in terms of the origin of the sale (not the termination). Thus you, sitting at a computer in Romania, bought snus while in Romania, which is illegal.

The deciding factor in the eyes of EU law has shifted then from:

Where did you buy your snus from (Northerner in Sweden)

to

from where did you buy your snus (sitting at my computer in Romania)


It is simply a matter of which end of the string is most important



Hope this helps

The problem, aside from snus, with this reading of the law is that it massively restricts internet sales across the board. Previously, a shop only had to conform to their local laws, the rest was the responsibility of the buyer. Say, for instance, you're selling knives over the internet, you would have to know and conform to the laws in every country you intend to sell to, which, in that particular case, is almost impossible since there's a million different ones. It would be a nightmare to check, for every knife in you inventory, which country you're allowed to ship it to. The net result is that internet shops will lose a lot of business, which is the intended effect. As I said before, the EU is a control-machine (as the sum of all european governments, which are control-freaks themselves) and internet shops were eluding control.

Rather than encourage trade between people in different countries, EU regulations constantly try to restrict or outright ban such trade.

[chossy]

So, technically

IF Precious from Romania, visits Sweden, places an order for snus on www.website.domain and has it shipped to Romania, everything is perfectly legal?

Or if Chossy places an order on said webiste whilst in Malmö and wants it delivered to

99 Brown Brickhouse St.
xx xx x Foggytown
United Kingdom

it is also extremely legal?

Please I want to know