No More EU To EU Snus Sales! (EU Members Please Read!)

[Mordred]

So, technically

IF Precious from Romania, visits Sweden, places an order for snus on www.website.domain and has it shipped to Romania, everything is perfectly legal?

Or if Chossy places an order on said webiste whilst in Malmö and wants it delivered to

99 Brown Brickhouse St.
xx xx x Foggytown
United Kingdom

it is also extremely legal?

Please I want to know

In theory, yes.

What you have to realize though, whenever dealing with the judiciary, is that the letter of the law isn't what matters, it's how the judges understand it. I work in the field, and I have seen time and time again judges go against the letter of the law and have it be upheld through appeals because hey, they had a "different reading" of the law. Of course, what they did, in fact, have, was a WRONG reading of the law, but that hardly matters as long as you know that it will be upheld by your buddies in the appeals court. And the worst part of that particular vice is precedents. I have seen whole procedures rise arise from "different" readings of the law, leading to truly absurd things.

I could go on a long, long rant about all that is wrong with the judiciary, because that's what ten years working in that field does to you, but the bottom line is this: once a law has been "read" in a stricter way than it was read before (or indeed intended), it's very difficult to go back to the way it was before, especially if your cause is looked down upon by popular opinion. Also, believe me, judges are just as prone to irrational, alarmist nonsense and will happily consider snus to be satanic cancer-extract, just as they happily give people long jail sentences for selling a couple of grams of pot to a buddy.

[lxskllr]

Also, believe me, judges are just as prone to irrational, alarmist nonsense and will happily consider snus to be satanic cancer-extract, just as they happily give people long jail sentences for selling a couple of grams of pot to a buddy.

Judges are dumbasses just like everyone else. They're so used to having their asses kissed for so long, they don't realize it. They're as corrupt as the worst politicians, and they spin things the way they want to, right be damned.

[precious007]

So, technically

IF Precious from Romania, visits Sweden, places an order for snus on www.website.domain and has it shipped to Romania, everything is perfectly legal?

Or if Chossy places an order on said webiste whilst in Malmö and wants it delivered to

99 Brown Brickhouse St.
xx xx x Foggytown
United Kingdom

it is also extremely legal?

Please I want to know

No you're not allowed. Since UK is in the EU and you're not allowed to ship snus from Sweden anywhere it the EU. IMO.... that's how I see things.

The law stressed SNUS commerce inside the EU. (apart from selling SNUS regularly in Sweden's local shops)

someone please correct me if I am wrong.

[Brettv]

Damn, thats gonna be really hard to police IMO. So if I use a proxy and technically "buy" the product off a server in the Caribbean, and ship it direct to the UK within the EU..

a) It is legal
b) Theres nothing they can do as I have technically bought it from the Caribbean and am not shipping outside the EU??....damn this could get complicated

I have been in the off-shore casino business so payment gateways, proxies etc are my cup of tea ...where there is a will..I want to be in it I will find a way!!

[Mordred]

No you're not allowed. Since UK is in the EU and you're not allowed to ship snus from Sweden anywhere it the EU. IMO.... that's how I see things.

The law stressed SNUS commerce inside the EU. (apart from selling SNUS regularly in Sweden's local shops)

someone please correct me if I am wrong.

It would seem to me that if the purchase was made locally, in Sweden, you could ship it. Of course, if you have to travel to Sweden to do this, you might as well take it back with you, rather than have it shipped.

Damn, thats gonna be really hard to police IMO. So if I use a proxy and technically "buy" the product off a server in the Caribbean, and ship it direct to the UK within the EU..

a) It is legal
b) Theres nothing they can do as I have technically bought it from the Caribbean and am not shipping outside the EU??....damn this could get complicated

I have been in the off-shore casino business so payment gateways, proxies etc are my cup of tea ...where there is a will..I want to be in it I will find a way!!

The law doesn't mention export, only import. It specifically says that importing tobacco not intended to be smoked, chewed or stuck up your butt (ok, I made that one up), cannot be imported for COMMERCIAL purposes. So it doesn't matter where it's coming from, which is why SM doesn't want Northerner to ship from the US either.

This is the french version of the text straight from Luxemburgish law, which copy-pasted the EU:

La mise sur le marché, la vente, la détention en vue de la vente et l’importation à des fins commerciales des tabacs à usage oral sont interdites.

Translates into : It is illegal to put on the market, sell, posess for the pupose of selling and import for commercial purposes, oral tobacco. (where "oral" tobacco relates only to snus, dip and similar products).

Again, exporting is perfectly legal, so no worries yet for our non EU snusers here. The Finnish court must have considered that Snus Worldwide AB was "importing for commercial purposes". It is interesting to note though, that for any court to ask a court in another EU country to carry out their orders, there has to be "double incrimination", meaning whatever the "crime" is, it has to be illegal in both countries. For instance, if murder were not illegal in Germany, France couldn't ask a German court to take action because of a murder.

In this case, I don't see how there could be double incrimination, since I'm pretty sure that there is no law in Sweden against selling snus. That might be a basis on which to attack whatever the courts did to Snus Worldwide AB, but of course, I'm neither a lawyer in international law, nor do I have access to all the information in this case, so it's a stab in the dark. Maybe they came from a different angle, with some other imagined wrongdoing, who knows?

Going back to Brettv's idea, if you did indeed go via some Caribean island that has no law against snus or indeed any desire to cooperate with European courts, you'd be able to evade the law. That said, the problem seems to be that Swedish Match doesn't want to be part of such an idea in the first place, since I think that Northerner's US shipping accomplishes pretty much the same goal. So you'd find yourself having to use a go-between to be able to sell SM products, which would in turn drastically cut your profit margin.

Note too that you would have to physically ship from outside the EU, which again adds more costs. At that point, it's not really viable anymore, at least not as long as other manufacturers don't do the same as SM.

[chossy]

It would seem to me that if the purchase was made locally, in Sweden, you could ship it. Of course, if you have to travel to Sweden to do this, you might as well take it back with you.

Not if you prefer a webshop

Or buy a lot, so its easier to send it cause u dont have room in your bags.

[Snusdog]

Snusdog..question does this then mean that if for example I have orders for snus paid for from outside the EU and shipped inside the EU this is then legal, according to the latest precedent?

That would be quite cool

Yes...........at least for now

Inner EU trade policy is distinct from Foreign trade policy........................that is until such a time as the anti tobacco groups notice the loophole and try to close down that rout as well.

However, not all is bleak................the article that GN published might suggest the opposite effect than what the anti-tobacco groups intended.

As long as folks in the EU could get snus with only a little hassle there was not a great protest........................however, to cut the supply completely may result in an out cry that actually results in a greater public awareness of how cigarette companies and politicians are manipulating public health and preception....................to the end that there is a backlash and a backing off of the restrictions.

This is not at all unrealistic.............and on the eve of the new EU regulations.......................is still at least somewhat in play.

[Snusdog]

The problem, aside from snus, with this reading of the law is that it massively restricts internet sales across the board. Previously, a shop only had to conform to their local laws, the rest was the responsibility of the buyer. Say, for instance, you're selling knives over the internet, you would have to know and conform to the laws in every country you intend to sell to, which, in that particular case, is almost impossible since there's a million different ones. It would be a nightmare to check, for every knife in you inventory, which country you're allowed to ship it to. The net result is that internet shops will lose a lot of business, which is the intended effect. As I said before, the EU is a control-machine (as the sum of all european governments, which are control-freaks themselves) and internet shops were eluding control.

Rather than encourage trade between people in different countries, EU regulations constantly try to restrict or outright ban such trade.

And that my friend is the very essence of the PACT ACT

So, technically

IF Precious from Romania, visits Sweden, places an order for snus on www.website.domain and has it shipped to Romania, everything is perfectly legal?

Or if Chossy places an order on said webiste whilst in Malmö and wants it delivered to

99 Brown Brickhouse St.
xx xx x Foggytown
United Kingdom

it is also extremely legal?

Please I want to know

No...............It may not be that simple. The purchase may have occurred in Sweden (in that is where you were standing when you made it).......................... However, do to IP addresses, Credit card or bank drafts...............as well as the inner EU shipping destination.............the transaction may still be considered as originating in Romania.

However, like Mordred said a lot would depend on a Judge's ruling..........which in reality you will never spend the money to get.................in all likelihood you will just have your snus seized or have your sale denied at check out on the basis of shipping destination.

But that is just my guess.........you are into a minutia of the EU law that is well beyond my scope of knowledge.

My thinking is that if you are in Sweden.................You would be better served to buy the snus at a store.............ask for a box.................find a Swedish post office................and mail it to your self......................no reason to go around the block to get next door

[precious007]

It doesn't work that way.

You can take it with you I think but you can not ship it to Romania from Northerner's warehouse in Sweden. (that would be considering selling snus to Romania) Doesn't matter if you've used a computer in Sweden, the one that benefit is from Romania. By the way if IP's would count and all that stuff..... I guess Northerner would not have closed their EU warehouse, take in order from the EU, place the orders again using Swedesh IP's (there's a simple glitch in the system that can be done to do that) and ship the packages right to Romania.

The only way to get orders from EU warehouse is to have someone in the US that can ship 1kg packages to EU. I wonder what the customs say when they will see Swedish Match brands......(weren't they banned?) confused......

[Ansel]

So if i go out to Sweden by getting a cheap flight and the maximum i can bring back is 100 can i buy 100 ship them home from a post office and then bring home another 100 on the flight?

[Snusdog]

Let me comment on two points you have made......................you may well be right................but I think there is a bit of a difference

The law doesn't mention export, only import. It specifically says that importing tobacco not intended to be smoked, chewed or stuck up your butt (ok, I made that one up), cannot be imported for COMMERCIAL purposes. So it doesn't matter where it's coming from, which is why SM doesn't want Northerner to ship from the US either.

My take is that the Finish courts decision concerns Finland only. Thus there is no over all EU law in play here at the moment. This is not a legally initiated ban (except in Finland). Rather, it is a merchant initiated ban (go back and reread the first line of SM letter)

Thus as I under it, SM has called a halt to all sales in order to prevent further court rulings which would in essence have the effect of creating a new EU wide policy on snus..............which in turn would have the potential of undercutting the new directive's reform

This is the french version of the text straight from Luxemburgish law, which copy-pasted the EU:

La mise sur le marché, la vente, la détention en vue de la vente et l’importation à des fins commerciales des tabacs à usage oral sont interdites.

Translates into : It is illegal to put on the market, sell, posess for the pupose of selling and import for commercial purposes, oral tobacco. (where "oral" tobacco relates only to snus, dip and similar products).

The key here will be the definition section of the law..............How does this particular law define the terms "Import"........ "commercial purposes..........."Put on the Market"

As it reads now this only limits the importation of snus for resale..................thus it does not speak to an individual who is buying for personal consumption.

However, you may remember the PACT ACT only limited "Interstate Sales" (sales between the states and territories of the USA). Thus on the face of it it had nothing to do with buying snus from Northerner or anyone else overseas (which would be "foreign sales"). However the definition section of the law defined "Interstate Sales" in such a way that it included all sales into a state regardless of where that sale derived (foreign or domestic).

The point is.............it is not enough to quote the stipulation...............without first considering the way that particular law defines its terms (in the definition section....whcih should be one of the first sections of the Law after the purpose/intent section)

However, with all that....................my feel is that this is not the issue at hand. The Import laws remain the same. What is changed is that a EU member court has upheld an new understanding that defines an internet sale in terms of its point of origin and not its point of termination. Thus when Northerner sells to a person in York...........it is now (under this new reading) legally the same thing as Northerner being a shop that is physically in York.

The result.............SM calls off all sales to prevent this reading from being tried in other member nations.

This might be spitting hairs a bit...............and in the end it might not matter....................but its a slow day................and there is not much else to do.

[precious007]

So if i go out to Sweden by getting a cheap flight and the maximum i can bring back is 100 can i buy 100 ship them home from a post office and then bring home another 100 on the flight?

Buy 100 what?

You can bring the most 1 kg of tobacco since you're in the E.U.

what is over 1kg can cause some trouble...

[Ansel]

Buy 100 what?

You can bring the most 1 kg of tobacco since you're in the E.U.

what is over 1kg can cause some trouble...

Okay so if i wanted to i could bring 1 kg back as well as shipping 1 kg back too from a Post Office?

[Snusdog]

By the way gauys

I blew up the Cannabis thread..................I didn't mean to..................I was trying to merge another thread to it so we could have all such discussions in one place............Anyway................the procedure went areigh.................and I'm not sure what I did

But..................in my defense.................they really should be more selective about who they hand these moderators buttons out to

Soooo...............I'm off to see if its been healed.................just know.............apart from incompetence....................there is no further reason behind its sudden disappearance

[Mordred]

The key here will be the definition section of the law..............How does this particular law define the terms "Import"........ "commercial purposes..........."Put on the Market"

As it reads now this only limits the importation of snus for resale..................thus it does not speak to an individual who is buying for personal consumption.

The point is.............it is not enough to quote the stipulation...............without first considering the way that particular law defines its terms (in the definition section....whcih should be one of the first sections of the Law after the purpose/intent section)

This might be spitting hairs a bit...............and in the end it might not matter....................but its a slow day................and there is not much else to do.

Our national law, called "Loi relative à la lutte antitabac" translating to "law pertaining to the fight against tobacco" defines, as per EU directive, differnt kinds of tobacco and goes into great detail concerning smoking bans etc, but it does not define "fins commerciale", i.e. commercial pupose. It might be defined in another law, but it would seem to me that there is no other commercial pupose for snus, other than resale.

And splitting hairs is ok when it comes to laws, because frankly, that's pretty much what it has come to in many cases.