Interesting Thunder Coola Los Low PH

[mattarios]

This is the response they gave me:

We developed and launched the Thunder cola portion a year ago well a wear that pH was lower than existing Thunder flavors. Under development we tried to higher the pH but that made the snus bitter and basically destroyed the flavor. After a year on the market we haven’t had any complaints regarding nicotine kick. With this experience we launched the loose version.

It’s difficult to compare cola and frosted. Besides moist, nicotine contents and pH the mint flavor does something unexplainable extra to nicotine release.

We don’t declare pH or grantee that pH is the same in all our products. There will be deferens’s from flavor to flavor. You can always ask us for pH levels before buy any new flavor.

I understand it but at the same time I don't find it fair. This is my response

I understand I just find it deceiving to sell a product as "extra sterk" that only has a ph of 7.1. With a PH that low very little nicotine is released. Most of the nicotine isn't "free" nicotine. I buy extra sterk because I can handle my nicotine, I feel I have been deceived buying a product that is labeled extra sterk and isn't truly extra sterk.

I literally feel NOTHING from this tobacco. It is basically a waste. I bought 24 cans of it, assuming it would be EXTRA STERK, and it isn't. Whether other people have complained about it or not, doesn't make it acceptable. With a PH of 8.5 roughly 85% of the nicotine is free, with a PH of 7.1 studies have shown that only 7% of the nicotine is free or usable. How can you market a product as extra sterk knowing you only get roughly 7% of the nicotine content?

What do you guys think? Like I said, I try to be fair with all companies but I don't think selling a product as extra sterk with a ph of 7.1 is acceptable. I knew after my first prilla this stuff was WEAK, weaker than any other normal strength snus with high ph like 8.5-8.8

Here is an example

Thunder frosted los with 8.5PH 16mg x .85 = 13.6 mg of free nicotine < extra sterk

Thunder coola los with 7.1 PH 16mg x .07 = 1.12 mg of free nicotine. < Not so stark

8mg strength snus with 8.5 PH 8mg x .85 = 6.8mg of free nicotine < regular strength releases more nicotine than the coola "extra sterk"

I just think it is unfair for them to just say we have had no complains so that's that.

[lxskllr]

I dunno, I really don't. I don't buy snus for nicotine. I get it purely for flavor, and avoid extra starks always. I think I lean towards their approach. Before trying a snus, you have no idea what it's like. It might taste like crap, be too strong, or too weak. It's up to the individual to decide if any particular snus meets their needs. I don't like taking a technological approach to tobacco. Some of it, like ph levels are interesting as a side line, but for me it comes down to whether I like the flavor or not, and to a lesser degree corporate politics and citizenship.

[mattarios]

So you don't think marketing a product as extra sterk with a PH of 7.1 is a gimmick? Because that is what it is, a gimmick. People buy extra sterk for the added nicotine, that is far from absent here. It is weaker than regular strength.

If you don't buy it for the nicotine that is a'ok, but some of us do, and when it is marketed as thunder extra strong under the same lines as the others, you expect it to meet the same needs. It is 6-7 times weaker than your regular strength snus, that doesn't mean anything when it is STILL marketed as extra sterk?

[mattarios]

All I asked for was I pay shipping to them to return 21 unopened cans i have of thunder coola, and in return they send me 21 unopened cans of thunder frosted. I think that is fair. I know i should try it first before buying, but having it marketed under extra sterk, it should be extra sterk and it isn't. It's not like I am saying eww the flavor is gross, I am saying the product is marketed as a specific thing, extra sterk, and it technically and physically (i feel nothing) is failing. There are numbers and experiences to prove this stuff is WEAK! And it isn't just weak, it is non existent. I bet it is even weaker than pioneer which I believe is 6mg/g.

[lxskllr]

So you don't think marketing a product as extra sterk with a PH of 7.1 is a gimmick? Because that is what it is, a gimmick. People buy extra sterk for the added nicotine, that is far from absent here. It is weaker than regular strength.

If you don't buy it for the nicotine that is a'ok, but some of us do, and when it is marketed as thunder extra strong under the same lines as the others, you expect it to meet the same needs. It is 6-7 times weaker than your regular strength snus, that doesn't mean anything when it is STILL marketed as extra sterk?

I guess I'm always skeptical of any marketing claims, and base my purchases solely on my experience. I'd liken it to flavor descriptions I don't agree with. Sometimes I have no idea where they get their descriptions from. Regarding the Thunder in particular, the nicotine is in there, you just have to release it. Try wetting them with an alkali solution, and try to get the ph up.

[mattarios]

Right but flavor is subjective, PH numbers and nicotine amounts that are released are not subjective. I was thinking of adding a higher pH to it and measuring the PH but I don't know if I want to mess with it. What can you add to it?

I am waiting to see what V2 will say about my offer of switching the coola for frosted. Any well run smart business would agree, what I am asking for is a simple switch, to keep a customer happy and continue using their product. I am not asking for a refund or anything like that, just a simple swap unopened cans for unopened cans not because of something subjective like flavors but something REAL, like numbers that prove this stuff isn't what it is claimed to be.

[mattarios]

Could you do a mixture of water and sodium BIcarbonate? I know they use sodium carbonate but would sodium bicarbonate work (baking soda)? I know it is extremely alkaline so you have to be careful, adding probably less than .5g to a can.

[squeezyjohn]

You can make your own sodium carbonate by taking regular baking soda and cooking it dry in the oven for an hour at a medium/high temperature. If it's portions - you may find it impossible to add a dry ingredient successfully to it, but you should be OK with lös.

[squeezyjohn]

Also - your indignation is way out ... as is your maths.

This is the response they gave me:

Thunder frosted los with 8.5PH 16mg x .85 = 13.6 mg of free nicotine < extra sterk

Thunder coola los with 7.1 PH 16mg x .07 = 1.12 mg of free nicotine. < Not so stark

I'm not sure that your equation pH/10 x mg/g value of the snus = mg of free nicotine has any foundation in science anyway (I can't find reference to that formula anywhere!), but if for a pH of 8.5, you enter a value of 0.85 to multiple by 16mg/g, surely the sum for working out free nicotine of Thunder Coola should be 0.71 x 16mg/g = 11.2 mg of free nicotine - more than a regular snus.

Am I just getting this incredibly wrong - or is this rant entirely unjustified?

[jagmanss]

I don't know Man! I have been following this thread and it seems to me your making way more out of using snus than there needs to be... I know some about PH in each snus or I should say about as much as the average snuser ever need's to know...

Did you ever concider that your tolerance is just too high and that you need to stop chasing the so called buzz... V2 and snus manufacturers are not trying to cheat you... There is not a conspiracy of them trying to deceive you...

I use varying strengths of snus with varying PH levels all day, I'll admit mostly sterks and there are certain snuses that hit me harder than others and never have a problem... But then again I'm not chasing the buzz...

I say

Just throw in the snus and call it a day...

[mattarios]

Check this:

http://www.snuscentral.org/lars-erik...-nicotine.html

Also, squeezyjohn the .85 is 85% of the nicotine is "free" or usable with a ph of 8.5, there is no correlation between the numbers. According to the article it is more like 75-80% that is free at 8.5 PH. so .75 or .80 x 16 mg of nicotine per gram would make more sense.

So with a PH of 7.1 only X % is usable, a very low amount mind you.

You can search the web for dip and snus ph to free nicotine, the numbers don't lie. There are charts like this one:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4819a3.htm

Obviously there ARE other factors like moisture content etc but the MAIN factor is PH. I didn't test the PH first, I tried the snus and was greatly dissapointed in the strength, then I tested the PH and said aha, no wonder.

Jagmanss you by all means have the right to your own opinion, I have always had a high tolerance to nicotine, the only thing that gives me a buzz or satisfaction every single time is thunder frosted. I only use snus once a day. So I am not building a tolerance. I just added .6 grams to 40g of thunder tested it with my PH meter came out to 8.5 just like thunder frosted, and BAM, buzz was money, just as good as thunder frosted. I did 5g of water mixed into .6 grams of baking soda which is fine to use and it worked wonders.

I knew from the start the coola was doing nothing, I would take it out after 1-1.5 hours and would say umm .. ok? Nothing. Then I'd toss in a frosted and be completely satisfied. I am not "chasing a buzz" I get a buzz everyday :-) because I don't use it all the time. Low levels of PH like what are found in American Dip has very low levels of "free" or usable nicotine because the PH is 7.5 and lower with the acception of a few brands.

I am not over thinking it, when I use a extra sterk such as thunder and there is nothing at all, no sting, no buzz, no nothing, it isn't acceptable to me. That is just me, I expected a strong snus like their frosted, and it isn't strong, it is weaker than a normal strength in terms of free nicotine.

[jagmanss]

mattarios, snus is not meant to give you a buzz and never was....

Prehaps snus is not for you...

May I suggest you try some other form of nicotine that may give you the buzz your after....

Ever since you joined this forum you have had nothing but complaints about snus and seem to be obsessed with a buzz from it and ph... First you want to lower the ph level in snus beacuse it is too high and bothers your throat and have throat issues, So you buy a ph tester from ebay and now your an expert on ph levels in snus... 90% of your post are about having issues with snus and ph or some other ingredient in it....

It is all here in your threads and post... And now in this thread continues the obsession and complaints about snus and the ph in it...

http://www.snuson.com/forum/showthre...ed-some-advice

http://www.snuson.com/forum/showthre...803#post444803

http://www.snuson.com/forum/showthre...ist-in-the-los

[jagmanss]

May I direct you to this thread.... I think you really need to read it...

http://www.snuson.com/forum/showthre...t=chasing+buzz

[mattarios]

Yeah I will check out your links, but I don't think you are reading my posts fully.

I DOOO get a buzz every time. I use snus and other tobacco products mainly hookah for enjoyment purposes, no addiction or anything like that. So when I use snus or hookah I DOOO get a buzz.

I don't use it often enough to not get a buzz.

The PH did burn my throat so I wanted to lower it, but then I realized I can just spit. I use thunder because it is strong, just like how I used to use Kodiak and Grizzly because it was strong, always got a buzz from all of them, then noticed coola was different, that is ALL. Wanted to find a way to increase it because I have ALWAYS had a high tolerance to nicotine and was dissapointed when coola was extremely weak.

That is all there is to it. I figured out how to increase it successfully so we are good :-) For the future I will probably just use thunder frosted.

If you take the posts I've made recently as complaints and what not, that is fine, you have the right to perceive it the way you would like. I was having an issue originally, and solved it with some help from everyone on this board and I appreciate that. I found coola to be extremely weak when it is marketed as extra sterk and I had a problem with that as well. Issue is solved now, so great. Just won't buy it in the future. Never tried to cause problems or be a "complainer" if that is how you perceive me, then that is unfortunate. I use snus differently than you do, I EXPECT a buzz every time I use it because I don't use it multiple times a day. And I have always gotten a buzz from all tobacco products every time I use them, because as I said, it isn't all the time. I expected something and it wasn't what I expected, maybe I AM at fault, or maybe not, either way, solution found.

[mattarios]

And as others have said in the link you posted, maybe buzz is the wrong term, I just enjoy feeling something when using tobacco, like a relaxation feeling as others said in that link you posted. It isn't really a BUZZ, more like ahh this is nice. I don't need to be spinning, just know something is there. And I have always had a high tolerance to nicotine ever since I first started using the stuff, which is mainly why I use sterks, because other than enjoyment for flavor, there isn't that litte extra there, and I do enjoy that little extra feeling :-)