Death of snus....America

[Polluted]

Every time I go into a store to ask about or purchase snus its the same story.

1) The cans are almost always expired or well expired....sometimes with the fridge even unplugged
2) the clerks tell me no one buys them, and that dip is much better sold
3)Some actually get frustrated and just want to get rid of them!

I think we owe it to ourselves to ask why. Even Camel snus in my area isn't a huge hit and the only guy I've ever seen using it was from out of state (I'm in California)

So what's the problem? Where on earth is the General going so wrong? Imagine for a sec that you are one of the woodsmen from here in Nor cal and you go to buy your dip. You decide to try that weird little cooler and see what's up. What do you see? What is he gonna buy?

-He will have his choice in my area of these choices white, portion, wintergreen or mint. In other words three choices really and they are all in pouches! Now he's pissed off not realizing what he purchased only comes in tea bags and throws it in his bottom lip like his chew. Why wouldn't he? How in the hell is he supposed to know where to put it? Its next to dip, he's used dip all his life, so this act should come to no surprise

-Chances are he's gonna spit out all the juice....after all why wouldn't he? He's not a tech savvy tobacco hipster who spends all his time online researching this stuff. He's a mountain man damnit.

-So how's he feel? I'm guessing completely unsatisfied. A pinch of any dip really compared to the white portion he just bought of General, hell even the portion is NOT gonna satisfy his craving or give him the slightest buzz. Fact is Generals variety in my area is weak. Camel snus with their reformulated brand hits harder than regular General (sorry its true)

So now he's got a tea bag in his lower lip like a dangus, not satisfied at all, AND he just paid $3-$5.5 for this walk on the wild side when he could have bought a pack of longhorn longcut for $1 (which ironically is made by swidish match)! Which would actually give him a soldiers dose of nicotine at a fraction of he cost. Even Copenhagen is $3-4 a tin around these parts and that's exactly where he's gonna return after his experiment.

Swidish Match is making a huge mistake here in Humboldt and many places for that matter and it falls on a variety of factors.

1) No instruction, or anything of the sort on this unique form of tobacco
2) Not enough nicotine. I've had 8mg odens portions that hit harder than General and I have no idea why
3) No loose! I know they have some for the American stores and yet no one is selling it. The closest thing to what the market is used to.....dip

You get one chance to make a first impression in this world and when there is already a familiar face on the playground you better make sure its a good one. I will honestly be surprised if you guys bounce back during the tobacco crusade in which we live.

*Up your nicotine, 11mg whites hit perfectly and that should be your minimum!
*Get some loose on the shelves! I know you have it but none is here in my area
*figure out how you can inform people of the correct way to use snus, even a small picture and an arrow pointing to the upper lip would do. Make your slogan "Pleasure you can swallow!" ......or something less pornographic but giving people an idea of what to do which will help their nicotine buzz as well.
* And change your image. Stylish swedes or business men use snus in your country, but not in America. Your package looks like it comes with a handkerchief and a cup of earl Greg tea. Change that crap and quick. The people who chew in America or college kids out for a kick, or countrymen. Your logo does absolutely nothing to catch the eye of either. At least Camel snus comes in a trippy exotic tin that is good for storing your ganja

[Andy105]

They do need to step up their game, or I'm afraid they'll disappear. Those little fridges are always stuck away in some dusty little corner with minimal signage, and I usually have to point it out to the sales clerk, who has no idea what I'm asking for (except at my local gas station, where they know me). It would help if our moronic government let them advertise. And I would keep my ganja in a General tin, for fear of ruining it with the taste of Camel snus.

[codyg140]

I agree with you about needing to get loose in stores but that's about it.

I like the look of general cans, they have a nice classic look to them. I almost feel embarrassed(?) when I pull out a can of Thunder with lightning bolts all over it or N&J with its flashy art style, makes me feel like a kid.

8 Mg of nic is a good level for many people though I would like to be able to buy extra strong once and awhile that's no reason to "up" the standard amount

The General I've got from a store in the middle of the bush in MN has never been expired or near the exp date.

You don't need to be a "savvy Tobacco Hipster" to use snus.
How do people learn about dip?? they see/ask someone or check the net. Same can be done for snus, hell it takes the same amount of steps for each.

Step 1. Put in mouth top for snus, bottom for dip.
Step 2. Swallow for snus, spit for dip.

Not that confusing

And just because someone is a woodsman that doesn't mean they won't like snus or give it a honest chance. I live in the bush, hunt, fish, cut down trees with a chainsaw, work on the railway and I still prefer snus.

Well that's all for me hope I didn't just kick a hornets nest.

[Andy105]

I've come across expired General at the counter but, after pointing it out, they went and found fresh stuff in the stockroom.
Hopefully, someday they'll be able to advertise as a safer alternative for nicotine. In the meantime, I'll be an ambassador and spread the word when I can.

[Burnsey]

I've given up on over the counter snus. I'm on the SM email list and receive coupons from them, but there's no place to use them. Would it kill SM to update their location finder? I have not found any of the listed locations to have any product, except one ........ the General cooler was out of sight, on the floor behind the counter......no original portion General, sold out, bought a can of whites......not a great retail experience,

[Polluted]

I agree with you about needing to get loose in stores but that's about it.

I like the look of general cans, they have a nice classic look to them. I almost feel embarrassed(?) when I pull out a can of Thunder with lightning bolts all over it or N&J with its flashy art style, makes me feel like a kid.

8 Mg of nic is a good level for many people though I would like to be able to buy extra strong once and awhile that's no reason to "up" the standard amount

The General I've got from a store in the middle of the bush in MN has never been expired or near the exp date.

You don't need to be a "savvy Tobacco Hipster" to use snus.
How do people learn about dip?? they see/ask someone or check the net. Same can be done for snus, hell it takes the same amount of steps for each.

Step 1. Put in mouth top for snus, bottom for dip.
Step 2. Swallow for snus, spit for dip.

Not that confusing

And just because someone is a woodsman that doesn't mean they won't like snus or give it a honest chance. I live in the bush, hunt, fish, cut down trees with a chainsaw, work on the railway and I still prefer snus.

Well that's all for me hope I didn't just kick a hornets nest.

I do agree about the lightening bolt comment. :P

[Snusdog]

Here is the problem:

SM is probably wise to disassociate itself from Dip and target a different market. The reason being is that

(a) Dip has such a stronghold on the market that a head on assault would be extremely costly and have proportionately (to the cost) a small return

(b) Dip has changed over the recent years. It has significantly lowered it TSNA counts to where they are for (many brands) in line with snus......in other words, much of the health advantage that snus had over dip has been marginalized.........mind you there is still an advantage with snus.......but the wow factor.......the main factor..........the TSNA counts between snus and dip...... has begun to close.

The result is that the leverage snus had versus dip has been reduced

As such, SM has taken a different approach.........distance itself from dip......go after the smoking market...........and then hope to get FDA "Harm Reduction" status


Once that happens then snus will have a huge leverage in both the dip and the cigarette markets.......they will be able to say what no other product can say........we are an official harm reduction product and safer than anything else out there.

Thus if and when FDA status is granted you should expect a more concentrated and fruitful push of snus into the American Market..........at that point brighter days are ahead

However, if the FDA status is not granted.........I think Snus will primarily remain an internet order option to cigarettes and will fade from BM shops and gas stations....... or at best simply hold the status quo

The one thing (really the only thing) that concerns me about FDA approval is NOT the anti tobacco lobbyists.........I think that bridge is well under way to being crossed......the weight of multiple scientific studies has gone far to present an unanswerable counter to what now seems little more than anti tobacco propaganda.

My main concern is the loss of tax revenue. As it stands now Snus and dip are taxed at a very high rate due to their standing as harmful (vice) products..........the point of the tax is to dissuade people from using the product......but in the end it is a cash cow for the government

Eventually it is going to dawn on someone (probably big tobacco or a pharmaceutic company that stands to lose if snus makes inroads into the market) that to alter snus' categorization will be to alter its tax status.......in other words someone is going to figure out that

....................Harm Reduction = Tax Revenue Reduction

And when they do the game may well be shot...........they won't say it out right of course.......It will be presented publicly as the same garbage about children and health concerns........but in truth it will be revenue generated (both from a governmental and a big corporate standpoint)

Our one hope may be that snus will still fall under some sort of luxury tax and that there will be a way to keep tax revenues equivolent.............but at the end of the day I believe it will be tax revenue (not science or any anti tobacco propaganda) that will be the deciding factor regarding snus in America and then (via the domino effect) the rest of the World

[mattzq8sonoma]

Every time I go into a store to ask about or purchase snus its the same story.

1) The cans are almost always expired or well expired....sometimes with the fridge even unplugged
2) the clerks tell me no one buys them, and that dip is much better sold
3)Some actually get frustrated and just want to get rid of them!

I think we owe it to ourselves to ask why. Even Camel snus in my area isn't a huge hit and the only guy I've ever seen using it was from out of state (I'm in California)

So what's the problem? Where on earth is the General going so wrong? Imagine for a sec that you are one of the woodsmen from here in Nor cal and you go to buy your dip. You decide to try that weird little cooler and see what's up. What do you see? What is he gonna buy?

-He will have his choice in my area of these choices white, portion, wintergreen or mint. In other words three choices really and they are all in pouches! Now he's pissed off not realizing what he purchased only comes in tea bags and throws it in his bottom lip like his chew. Why wouldn't he? How in the hell is he supposed to know where to put it? Its next to dip, he's used dip all his life, so this act should come to no surprise

-Chances are he's gonna spit out all the juice....after all why wouldn't he? He's not a tech savvy tobacco hipster who spends all his time online researching this stuff. He's a mountain man damnit.

-So how's he feel? I'm guessing completely unsatisfied. A pinch of any dip really compared to the white portion he just bought of General, hell even the portion is NOT gonna satisfy his craving or give him the slightest buzz. Fact is Generals variety in my area is weak. Camel snus with their reformulated brand hits harder than regular General (sorry its true)

So now he's got a tea bag in his lower lip like a dangus, not satisfied at all, AND he just paid $3-$5.5 for this walk on the wild side when he could have bought a pack of longhorn longcut for $1 (which ironically is made by swidish match)! Which would actually give him a soldiers dose of nicotine at a fraction of he cost. Even Copenhagen is $3-4 a tin around these parts and that's exactly where he's gonna return after his experiment.

Swidish Match is making a huge mistake here in Humboldt and many places for that matter and it falls on a variety of factors.

1) No instruction, or anything of the sort on this unique form of tobacco
2) Not enough nicotine. I've had 8mg odens portions that hit harder than General and I have no idea why
3) No loose! I know they have some for the American stores and yet no one is selling it. The closest thing to what the market is used to.....dip

You get one chance to make a first impression in this world and when there is already a familiar face on the playground you better make sure its a good one. I will honestly be surprised if you guys bounce back during the tobacco crusade in which we live.

*Up your nicotine, 11mg whites hit perfectly and that should be your minimum!
*Get some loose on the shelves! I know you have it but none is here in my area
*figure out how you can inform people of the correct way to use snus, even a small picture and an arrow pointing to the upper lip would do. Make your slogan "Pleasure you can swallow!" ......or something less pornographic but giving people an idea of what to do which will help their nicotine buzz as well.
* And change your image. Stylish swedes or business men use snus in your country, but not in America. Your package looks like it comes with a handkerchief and a cup of earl Greg tea. Change that crap and quick. The people who chew in America or college kids out for a kick, or countrymen. Your logo does absolutely nothing to catch the eye of either. At least Camel snus comes in a trippy exotic tin that is good for storing your ganja

To head up your concerns..."#1 No Instruction". Tobacco companies can't give instructions on how to use their products. That's part of the advertising thing that tobacco companies can't do anymore. Part of the reason for the Modified Risk Tobacco Product Status. So the labels are included with FACTUAL information and so there could be potential for education from Company to Consumer.

"#2 not enough Nicotine". Fresh to fresh, 8mg Nicotine Snus and 11 mg Nicotine Dip (about average, some are 9 and up to almost 14) have about the same amount of free nicotine, so the nicotine delivery is approximately the same. Dip, because most people use it loose, delivers a little more quickly, but the norm is to not leave it in your lip as long as snus, so there again it evens out to about the same. I said fresh to fresh because pH drops over time, so the older it is, the harder it is to get the Nicotine out of it.

"#3 No Loose" Loose is available in a lot of places. Only about 20% of the USA's smokeless tobacco market is West of the Mississippi River (includes TX, OK which is a pretty decent chunk of smokeless users), which is like 40% of the Country's population. So distribution out there is not full scale yet because tobacco, in general, is just not used as much there.

Bottom line to me at the present is this. Until more people start using Snus and we start getting high throughput in stores, snus is going to be harder to find fresh in a store because not enough people are buying it, so the stores don't need to buy more, so the stuff they ordered sits there and gets old. Swedish Match is losing millions of dollars in their US launch of snus as it is now. We can't educate people here, so it's hard to get our products in someone's hand who's looking for something different or just likes to try different things, or wants to quit smoking, or wants something that delivers Nic without the ill-effects.

They do need to step up their game, or I'm afraid they'll disappear. Those little fridges are always stuck away in some dusty little corner with minimal signage, and I usually have to point it out to the sales clerk, who has no idea what I'm asking for (except at my local gas station, where they know me). It would help if our moronic government let them advertise. And I would keep my ganja in a General tin, for fear of ruining it with the taste of Camel snus.

And what Swedish Match can't control is what the stores do. Most convenience stores are on contract with RJR or Philip Morris and their contracts say that their products have to have X amount of their entire shelf-space, have to be the most visible, and nobody else can have signage over a certain size and no other company can advertise a price of a product for less than what they sell their stuff for. So a can of $1.19 Longhorn that's labelled $1.19 right on the can, can't be advertised at that price because Grizzly is $2.49.

Go to a 7-Eleven or Shell or Pilot or something like that and just look. Look at all the Camel, Marlboro, Black & Mild, Copenhagen, Grizzly, & Skoal signs. Now try to find Swedish Match sign....General, Longhorn, TimberWolf, Red Man, White Owl. Now try to find any of those Swedish Match products. You probably won't see a sign and you'll have a hard time seeing the area the products are stored. It's because those other companies have made it impossible for companies like Swedish Match to get noticed...not because the signs aren't available because they are. There have been billion dollar settlements between tobacco companies because it this exact matter. Altria got in some deep doo-doo over this stuff a few years back and paid out $1B to RJR and $400M to Swedish Match because of bad practices in convenience stores.

If you want to see a good advertisement or good location for SM products, go to a Tobacco Shop...one of those places that sells just tobacco products. You should be able to find General in there fresh and in a good location.

[stubby2]

The federal tax on smokeless tobacco is actually very low compared to cigarettes. I just looked it up and it is $1.51 a pound. It is the states that are taxing smokeless. Where I live it is 100% of wholesale.

[Polluted]

Lots of good info, thanks for sharing your thoughts guys

[codyg140]

Lots of good info, thanks for sharing your thoughts guys

Yay for friendship!!!

[Snusdog]

The federal tax on smokeless tobacco is actually very low compared to cigarettes. I just looked it up and it is $1.51 a pound. It is the states that are taxing smokeless. Where I live it is 100% of wholesale.

Exactly and good point...........that said......it still remains that a reduction in status in all likelihood will provide grounds for a reduction in tax (the product will be categorized differently and thus taxed under a different bracket/rate).......if so that may play a deciding roll

[pouchface]

Exactly and good point...........that said......it still remains that a reduction in status in all likelihood will provide grounds for a reduction in tax (the product will be categorized differently and thus taxed under a different bracket/rate).......if so that may play a deciding roll

Probably, but not necessarily. If the federal government thinks that snus can gain a significant market share over time-perhaps more than US moist snuffs-they may put a moderate sin tax on it now, and then levy larger tax hikes after the product has become entrenched. Depends on how much the bureaucrats believe in the product I suppose.

[GoVegan]

I don't understand what Swedish Match is doing. They "accidentally" shipped some los to a gas station I go to on my way home from work. I happily bought several cans a week until their stock was gone. I was then told by the manager at the station that they can't get it and wont be stocking it anymore. Now they have a ton of mini mints. If something is selling at a particular location, why would you stop carrying it? I have also noticed a lot of gas stations around here getting rid of their General coolers. It won't be long before General become difficult to find again.

[tom502]

I think the USA is just dippers country. Is Camel Snus even still made? I never see it anymore, but it was all over the place back when it came out... that is how I learned of Swedish snus. Nasal snuff too, you never see it. I think back and it all went bad when Mr Snuff moved to the UK and Getsnus closed up... the original Getsnus... it was magical, new, and all exotic back then... damn... it's been a few years now... 5? more? wow.... I used to love ordering from those places, but then when our oppressive government interfered and ruined it all.... it made it a hassle.... I mostly just dipped American after a while... and smoked... sold off all my snus and nasal snuff... wish I'd kept some nasal snuff now... just to have... but I'd quit, and my nose was always stuffy... for me, I guess it was a fad.... it was fun, it was interesting, but the allure left me.. I just don't see it taking off in the USA... ever, especially when we have such a hard line anti-tobacco propaganda and enforcement movement.