Deep Cover

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  • Snusdog
    Member
    • Jun 2008
    • 6752

    Deep Cover

    Ok for the past few days I’ve been operating under deep cover, running covert operations behind enemy lines all for the cause of snus. Let me explain.

    This past week I had to do quite a bit of driving. Along the way I picked up a can of Timber Wolf dip (a brand I used exclusively for over two years). Now before there are gasps and shrieks. Let me assure you I did not fall off the wagon or have a relapse. I really did buy it for research. I really have no desire to EVER go back to dip. Here’s why I bought it: I have been writing and talking about dip and snus here on the forum for some time. I am writing mainly for those who have just come off of dip. Thus I wanted to make sure that my memory had not become a caricature of my experience with dip.

    I can honestly say that it has not. Every word of my initial comparisons stands.

    One thing that my little research project confirmed in a very striking manner is the effect of dip. Almost immediately I became dizzy and some what queasy (and no I was not swallowing the stuff). Also, my lip got that old feeling- I can’t explain it except that it was like an addict getting a fix of something after being dry a long time. There was something in the dip that I had not had in a long time. My lip recognized it. I could feel it and I could feel its effect. It was not Nicotine. I dipped for well over 25 years. Today, I chain snus, while using snuff (often American Scotches), and sometimes I’ll even throw in a pipe of a strong English blend for good measure. And when I say that I use snus while snuffing while smoking a pipe I mean that I am using them all at the same time- The point is that Nicotine and I have met. It wasn’t the nicotine. There is added crap in American dip that IS the primary source of the fix you get. Dip and Snus are two very different birds.

    On 4 different occasions I tried a dip and I kept each dip in about 5-10 minutes. It was all I could stand.


    The second thing that my little research project confirmed concerns the flavor of dip. I was using Timber Wolf fine cut natural- There is nothing natural about it. My guess is that dip is primarily made of burley and deer tongue (two varieties of tobacco that are not big on flavor- though distinct in flavor). It seems that the “natural” flavor is just that- a flavoring that is added. Kind of like using Liquid Smoke flavoring verses actually smoking the ribs/burgers over real hickory wood. In other words, the flavor, like the effect, is chemically enhanced.

    The surprise of the research had to do with the cut. I have said again and again that snus does not behave like dip. Now while I still hold this to be very true, over the last 2+ years I have learned to adjust. When I threw out my dip of TW, I replaced it with a lower lip of knox. The difference while still there was not as great or as noticeable as when I started using snus. In fact, it wasn’t bothersome at all. I was glad to have my snus and I liked the way it felt. The point is: I acclimated.

    One final note: after this venture into deep cover, I think a lot of why dip and snus behave differently has to do with the difference in moisture as much as it has to do with the actual cut. Snus needs to be refrigerated or it dries out. Thus snus starts off much moister than dip. On the other hand, dip needs no such refrigeration and can maintain its moisture level unaided for much longer. As such, dip starts out a bit dryer (at least it was that way when comparing TW side by side with Knox). Which begs the question: Why can American dip start with lest moisture and maintain that level longer while snus starts with more moisture but will dry out faster? I think the answer is that the moisturizing ingredient in dip is more than just water. Again: Enhancement. Enhancement. Enhancement.


    My research concluded with me throwing a nearly full can of Timber Wolf dip into the trash. As I write this, I have a delectable pris of hand tossed Roda lovingly nestled in my upper lip. No regrets and no looking back.
    When it's my time to go, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my uncle did....... Not screaming in terror like his passengers
  • fedora
    Member
    • Aug 2008
    • 251

    #2
    Snusdog - that sounds interesting. I was never a big one to dip - used to make little mini portions of Copenhagen Black. The taste was great, but swallowing the stuff was foul. Only lasted a couple of cans.

    Your deep cover operation may pay off - at least as knowledge for the snusers here.

    I realized you prolly know all about dippin' so had a question: Is there a dip that comes anything close to Swedish? I mean - pasteurized at least?

    I thought I read somewhere - not here on the forum - that Kodiak was made in a fashion similar to Swedish. I spent an hour searching through the forum but couldn't get any data. Maybe its a lost cause - I nearly went and bought a can of Kodiak, too. Anyhow - do you have any information in this area?

    Thanks!

    Comment

    • justintempler
      Member
      • Nov 2008
      • 3090

      #3
      Snusdog

      Since Timberwolf is made by Swedish Match you have a starting point.

      The composite list for moist snuff (dip):
      http://www.swedishmatch.com/en/Our-b...ntCategoryID=6

      of interest:
      Hydrogenated starch hydrosylate (HSH) is a mixture of several sugar alcohols

      Salicylic acid (related to aspirin)

      one of the side effects of Pottasium Chloride (used for flavor)
      from wikipedia
      ..Side effects can include gastrointestinal discomfort including nausea and vomiting..
      (why you can't swallow dip?)

      The composite list for snus:
      http://www.swedishmatch.com/en/Our-b...tCategoryID=12

      Comment

      • Snusdog
        Member
        • Jun 2008
        • 6752

        #4
        JT,
        You are the man. Great find! Thanks mate!!

        As I read both lists, however, I wonder if this provides only part of the story. Producing or making dip/snus is only one step. There is still the issue of growing and curing the tobacco. Pesticides alone could be a major factor as well as anything used between the picking and the mixing stages.

        All I can tell you is, there is something significant going on in dip that ain’t going on in snus. My lip, body, and the difference in the cancer stats between the two products say the same.

        I don’t know where those differences come into the process but I can tell you they are there and that their functions have a lot to do with shelf life and the buzz/addictiveness.


        Originally posted by fedora
        Snusdog - that sounds interesting. I was never a big one to dip - used to make little mini portions of Copenhagen Black. The taste was great, but swallowing the stuff was foul. Only lasted a couple of cans.

        Your deep cover operation may pay off - at least as knowledge for the snusers here.

        I realized you prolly know all about dippin' so had a question: Is there a dip that comes anything close to Swedish? I mean - pasteurized at least?

        I thought I read somewhere - not here on the forum - that Kodiak was made in a fashion similar to Swedish. I spent an hour searching through the forum but couldn't get any data. Maybe its a lost cause - I nearly went and bought a can of Kodiak, too. Anyhow - do you have any information in this area?

        Thanks!
        Fedora,

        I know of no American product (including Camel snus) that I would feel safe in calling a snus equivalent (for me the issue with camel snus is the long term effect of all that sweetness right next to the teeth- that and a general distrust in anything American Tobacco puts out).

        I know there is a new portion product called Diplomat (see edit correction below) that is supposed to be the real deal but I have never tried it.

        Also a while back a product named Klondike was promoted as following the same standards as snus. However, closer to the release of the product that all changed. Since then the company has refused to release any info concerning their product verses snus (and they have been asked directly by some on this forum and a few other forums). Beside that I think Tom502 did a taste test of them and was not impressed. [In fact, I think Klondike (not Kodiak) is the product you are looking for in your post above]

        So the short of it is no. I know of nothing (with the possible exception of Diplomat) and absolutely nothing in los. And until an American snus can meet the food standards of Swedish snus (regardless of how closely one area of the production mirrors Swedish snus) I want nothing to do with it. Life is too short and snus is too good. Why roll the dice with an industry that has shown its willingness to poison its customers (remember all the tobacco settlements- If they will do it to cig you darn well better believe they will do it to dip)

        Hope this helps

        Edit: the snus I was thinking of above is Discreet not diplomat. Thanks fellas for the correction
        When it's my time to go, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my uncle did....... Not screaming in terror like his passengers

        Comment

        • tom502
          Member
          • Feb 2009
          • 8985

          #5
          What is this "Diplomat", and where is it available?

          The Klondike fine cut Peppermint Blast, and Wintergreen did have decent to good taste. I did not like the Straight. The Cherry pouches tasted like Sucrets to me.

          Comment

          • sagedil
            Member
            • Nov 2007
            • 7077

            #6
            Diplomat was a much beloved snus that was discontinued last year. Retro was it's replacement.

            Comment

            • justintempler
              Member
              • Nov 2008
              • 3090

              #7
              Originally posted by Snusdog
              ....All I can tell you is, there is something significant going on in dip that ain’t going on in snus. ......
              I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say it's the hidden sugars, the sweetness and its effects on the pleasure centers of the brain. Combined with nicotine it's a synergistic effect using multiple pathways. ?

              Comment

              • Snusdog
                Member
                • Jun 2008
                • 6752

                #8
                Originally posted by sagedil
                Diplomat was a much beloved snus that was discontinued last year. Retro was it's replacement.
                OK then that's not what I am thinking of. This stuff is portions that come in resealable pouches and is for sale here in the US. Small company. The owner posted here on a few occasions. Gave away free samples by mail. Seem to recall a lot of fruity flavors.

                Help me out here?
                When it's my time to go, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my uncle did....... Not screaming in terror like his passengers

                Comment

                • daruckis
                  Member
                  • Jul 2009
                  • 2277

                  #9
                  discreet.

                  Comment

                  • Snusophile
                    Member
                    • May 2008
                    • 531

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Snusdog
                    Originally posted by sagedil
                    Diplomat was a much beloved snus that was discontinued last year. Retro was it's replacement.
                    OK then that's not what I am thinking of. This stuff is portions that come in resealable pouches and is for sale here in the US. Small company. The owner posted here on a few occasions. Gave away free samples by mail. Seem to recall a lot of fruity flavors.

                    Help me out here?
                    Discreet, that's the stuff.

                    Comment

                    • Snusophile
                      Member
                      • May 2008
                      • 531

                      #11
                      Originally posted by daruckis
                      discreet.
                      S.O.B you beat me! :lol:

                      Comment

                      • Snusdog
                        Member
                        • Jun 2008
                        • 6752

                        #12
                        Originally posted by justintempler
                        I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say it's the hidden sugars, the sweetness and its effects on the pleasure centers of the brain. Combined with nicotine it's a synergistic effect using multiple pathways. ?
                        JT, I don't know man. However, I doubt simply sweeteners would tear the crap out of your lip like dip does. Dip lip is not like the salt abrasions folks will get from time to time from snus. It’s not even like the sores you get from eating too much candy. It is more like a chemical burn and far more painful than anything snus causes. Also I’m not sure mere sweeteners would explain the difference in cancer rates between dip and snus. Now I’m not saying that you are wrong here at all. But I'm guessing there is much more to it and that whatever it is- it is more insidious than flavoring.
                        When it's my time to go, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my uncle did....... Not screaming in terror like his passengers

                        Comment

                        • daruckis
                          Member
                          • Jul 2009
                          • 2277

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Snusophile
                          Originally posted by daruckis
                          discreet.
                          S.O.B you beat me! :lol:
                          haha, i kinda thought thered be like 4 posts saying discreet by the time i hit post.

                          Comment

                          • Snusdog
                            Member
                            • Jun 2008
                            • 6752

                            #14
                            Originally posted by daruckis
                            discreet.
                            Gotcha thats the one. Thanks daruckis


                            and for you Ophile a nice big box of Rice a Roni just for playing
                            When it's my time to go, I want to die peacefully in my sleep, like my uncle did....... Not screaming in terror like his passengers

                            Comment

                            • fedora
                              Member
                              • Aug 2008
                              • 251

                              #15
                              Thanks Snusdog. Really I'm looking something that is in the local 7-11 or Shell station. But...... it won't happen soon. So for now, its ordering through the internet and impatiently waiting for my delivery and paying shipping fees and so forth. But I do love the real snus and it is worth the wait and money. Thanks again.

                              Comment

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