Brand Loyalty ?

[sagedil]

FWIW, that wasn't "Americans" who turned it into dip. It was immigrated Swedes, part of the great Swedish emigration, who just failed miserably in their attempt to recreate snus in the New World.

[justintempler]

FWIW, that wasn't "Americans" who turned it into dip. It was immigrated Swedes, part of the great Swedish emigration, who just failed miserably in their attempt to recreate snus in the New World.

It was only a failure if you were comparing it to Swedish Snus of today.

You start out with basic Swedish snus and add molasses for flavouring and you have the beginnings of dip. Was that a failure? or just an appeal to the masses for what they wanted?

I don't see much difference to today by addings flavours to appeal to the masses. As soon as you start adding flavours you run the risk of it becoming popular and then you have a modern day version of "failed miserably in their attempt to recreate snus"

History has a habit of repeating itself.

Part of brand loyalty is the true appreciation of what Swedish snus IS and to stop adding flavours to make it better.

[chadizzy1]

This is just my input. Not saying anyone is right or wrong, but just my thoughts on it.

When they started adding Cherry to Coke to make Cherry Coke, that wasn't an attempt to mess it up, or to make it better, or to change what works, that was just an attempt to appeal to a different market. Because everyone's taste buds are different.

Some people add salt to everything because that is what they truly enjoy. Some people can't stand it. Some people think a steak is great, and to add sauce to it is the worst thing you can do, but some people think sauce compliments a steak.

Is having a market for Cherry Coke a bad thing? Does A1 existing in the market present a problem for the beef industry? Certainly not. To each their own, and everyone's taste buds are on a different level. Granted, in some things - such as snus, the majority of people agree on one flavor and consider the rest to be odd, different, or just not on the level enough to try anything different. The reason different flavors exist is to cater to different markets.

Say you're trying to quit smoking, and reading reviews of snus and don't like this "bergamot thing" their reading about, but read a review of a pomegranate snus and just happen to love pomegranate. They try it, and quit smoking, and love the flavor and keep buying it. Their tastes my evolve, they may not. But for every person out there with different tastes, there is a different flavor, and these companies cater to different markets. I think it's important to have flavored and unflavored snus, because to each their own, and I don't think any taste is right or wrong, it's just their personal preference.

[Ainkor]

[i] I don't think any taste is right or wrong, it's just their personal preference.

I think you hit on what will always be the issue with anything, ever.

Based on my experiences in life, here are some basic needs that everyone has:

1. The need for housing
2. The need for food
3. The need for sexual contact (themselves or others)
4. The need for companionship (other than sexual)
5. The need to be RIGHT, even at the expense of others

One could argue on the order of importance, but I see the need to be right as the most commonly expressed needs on a daily basis. Some people are better at hiding it, others show it with almost a reverent pride (aka ego).

When it comes to flavors, I am always right, unless I am wrong, but I am the only one that could point that out :P

I have long ago accepted that what is right to one person, is most likely wrong to a large percent of others and have moved passed the worrying stage of life and into the tough shit if you don't like it phase.

There are very few people that I even remotely care what they think about me or things I do.

With flavors of snus, there may be a large consensus in Sweden on what is considered the best flavor profile, but I doubt that flavor profile will be prevalent in other parts of the world. I happen to like non traditional flavors of snus, others like plain ones. In the end, I think chadizzy1 hit it right on the head, its a preference.

All I care about is that people try snus and get off smoking. To me, that means more than personal preferences on taste

[sagedil]

FWIW, that wasn't "Americans" who turned it into dip. It was immigrated Swedes, part of the great Swedish emigration, who just failed miserably in their attempt to recreate snus in the New World.

It was only a failure if you were comparing it to Swedish Snus of today.

You start out with basic Swedish snus and add molasses for flavouring and you have the beginnings of dip. Was that a failure? or just an appeal to the masses for what they wanted?

I don't see much difference to today by addings flavours to appeal to the masses. As soon as you start adding flavours you run the risk of it becoming popular and then you have a modern day version of "failed miserably in their attempt to recreate snus"

History has a habit of repeating itself.

Part of brand loyalty is the true appreciation of what Swedish snus IS and to stop adding flavours to make it better.

Failure = NOT what they wanted, not what they thought they would get. What they wanted was what they knew of snus from the old country. Not saying the result isn't something else good or anything. but need to know that history to understand the bemoanings of Swedes here about not being able to get their beloved snus

Chad, I am not sure what you are talking about. The Swedes weren't trying to make something "new". they were trying to make something very old, but the tobacco just wouldn't cooperate.

Again, my only point was to remember history as I think that is both interesting and important

An interesting tidbit....

Copenhagen Snus History
Where Copenhagen Began

There is a common theory that Copenhagen was conceived in Sweden and marketed here in the U.S. While Copenhagen Snuff, the original name for Copenhagen Smokeless, is closely related to Swedish snus, it’s only related by the look of the tobacco in the can and the two couldn’t be more different. While it’s believed the Swedish did bring the method of grinding tobacco so it can be used in the mouth with them from Sweden in the early 1800’s, as soon as they came to America, the production methods changed. “Hey guys, we thought we were talking history here, not production and snus!” You’re right, we did get ahead of ourselves so, let’s get back on track.

Copenhagen Snuff came to existence in 1822 and was invented by George Weyman in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Weyman’s tobacco shop was also one of the only structures to survive the great fire in Pittsburgh in 1845 and up to 1905; Copenhagen Snuff was owned and produced by the Weyman family until it was purchased by, what is now known as US Smokeless Tobacco. While the Copenhagen name has been in existence for over 180 years, the flavor has also stayed pretty consistent for all this time as well as the Nicotine content! Nicotine content in the Copenhagen lines tend to hover between 6 and 8 mg of unprotonated Nicotine per gram. There are a few different varieties of Copenhagen today but, Copenhagen Snuff still is the one that most Smokeless users tend to stick with. Historically, Copenhagen Snuff tends to be what some will call an acquired taste and is popular among experienced tobacco users but, with the different varieties that US Smokeless has released recently, more and more of the younger generation are beginning to try the old standard that it Copenhagen Snuff but, what other kinds of Copenhagen are there? Let’s take a look!

[chadizzy1]

Chad, I am not sure what you are talking about. The Swedes weren't trying to make something "new". they were trying to make something very old, but the tobacco just wouldn't cooperate.

I think I was just randomly talking about the imporance of different products on the market.

[sagedil]

Yes, but it was in response to what I posted, and twisted the meaning of what I was talking about.

American dip came out of Swedes failed attempts to make snus here. Sure, it went on to become popular, but it wasn't what Swedes right off the boat were expecting.

All I was talking about. Had NOTHING to do with reasons Coke decided to add Cherry Coke. Nor in anyway "critical' of what Copenhagen and others became. Just an interesting sidelight to our knowledge about what we all love here, and what it went on to influence.

And it was mostly a response to justintempler. It was a "failure" compared to what Swedes were using in the 1800's in Sweden. And no, it wasn't an appeal to the masses, the masses wanted Swedish snus, they just got used to what they could get here though.

My point, I guess, was what became dip wasn't intentional, just happened when they tried to make snus.

Modern snus, new flavorings, etc, is a completely different beast. That is done intentionally in an attempt to grow market share. But not what happened when the swedes first got to America

[chadizzy1]

Alright guys, sorry I got confused on that.

[sagedil]

Actually, you just played on where justintempler started to go.
But at least his was connected to mine, yours, well you are Chad. :wink:

All is cool, I just wanted to pull this back into focus.

One more quote on my point, love history, love the net. :wink:

Some early American snus brands like Seal, Anchor, Green Seal, Red Seal, and Svenkstsnus were all big in their day, but were expensive to produce. It was also becoming exceedingly difficult to import Swedish brands, so Swedish immigrants began trying to find cheaper ways to manufacture snus. Copenhagen and Skoal were the direct results of that tinkering. Using the techniques and ingredients available to them in this country, a substitute for snus had been created. Gone was the air cured, pasteurized tobacco of their homeland and in was the fire cured, fermented tobacco of their new country. Thus, the history of American oral snuff can be directly traced back to Swedish snus.

[chadizzy1]

Actually, you just played on where justintempler started to go.
But at least his was connected to mine, yours, well you are Chad. :wink:

you love me. I'm like the son you always wanted

[justintempler]

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=101157

Some early American snus brands like Seal, Anchor, Green Seal, Red Seal, and Svenkstsnus were all big in their day, but were expensive to produce. It was also becoming exceedingly difficult to import Swedish brands, so Swedish immigrants began trying to find cheaper ways to manufacture snus. Copenhagen and Skoal were the direct results of that tinkering. Using the techniques and ingredients available to them in this country, a substitute for snus had been created. Gone was the air cured, pasteurized tobacco of their homeland and in was the fire cured, fermented tobacco of their new country. Thus, the history of American oral snuff can be directly traced back to Swedish snus.

I hate not being able to find reliable history. :roll: I seem to remember all snus used to be fermented. The winners have a habit of rewriting history in their favour. So much of what happened is lost. I am not going to argue about conflicting and vague history.

I believe they were sucessfull, it's just that the flavoured versions were more popular with the masses and the people willing to pay for traditional Swedish snus became such a small segment of the market that they got crowded out and Copenhagen and Skoal won out in the end.

On the other side of the pond, the company that is Swedish Match today became a government monopoly in 1915 and so they didn't have to change their product to compete with any competitors so they didn't have the same pressure to experiment and change their product to appeal to the masses.

[sagedil]

You certainly have given me enough gray hair for one. So that mean I can come move in with you, you take care of me????? :lol: :lol:

[RRK]

You certainly have given me enough gray hair for one. So that mean I can come move in with you, you take care of me????? :lol: :lol:

You guys would make a great couple. :wink:

[chadizzy1]

You certainly have given me enough gray hair for one. So that mean I can come move in with you, you take care of me????? :lol: :lol:

For $500 a month out of your Social Security Check (if they pay that much anymore, haha) and we have a deal!

[MN_Snuser]

Regarding brand loyalty. It seems like it is all about image. If you smoked Marlboro's or dipped Copenhagen you were a Cowboy, if you smoked Newports, you were a gangster, etc.

Being as I don't flaunt my snus habit, or use the brand I snus as a means to convey my personality, I don't care about what image my favorite type of snus conveys to others. I am loyal to the product(s) that satisfies me, and so should you. I hope this makes sense.

If you want to argue the merits of using "fruity" snus, go over to smpost.net. There are plenty of 12 year olds over there that love to judge people based the flavor of tobacco they use. :lol: