Un-Scientific PH test.

[RRK]

I posted this in the *FREE SAMPLE* Discreet Snus thread but I figured I shouldn't cludder up that thread with this type of stuff.

I think I might do some quick ph tests on Discreet because I don't really notice that they have much kick though they should be nearly twice as strong as most minis. I will probably test Discreet and General to compare the two since the ph of General is available. I don't expect exact science but I will soak two Discreets vs one General in some distilled water for a day or so and test the liquid on some test strips for my hot tub. Not the best method probably but should give me a comparison.

Well the non-scientific results are in.

My test strips only measure between ph 6.8-8.4. After 24 hours the General measured between 7.2-7.6 and the Discreet measured at 6.8 or below. I believe General is actually 8.5 but since I used water which is about 7 this effect probably brought the ph down by a point or so. However since the ph of Discreet measured lower then 7 it was probably actually brought up a bit by the distilled water so I'm afraid that the nicotine delivery in Discreet might be inhibited quite a bit by the relative acidity of its products.

I read online that Saccharin is stable in ph between ph 2-7. I'm not sure if this means that it actually has a low ph itself but I do believe that if Tom is using the Swedish method then the major differences between discreet and other swedish brands is probably just flavoring and sweetener (this is really a non-educated guess).

Again, this is a very crude test and should be taken with a grain of salt. Tom seems pretty open about his product so maybe he will let us know the actual ph. Maybe they just haven't thought about this and might decide to change the ph in the future.

I only tested the strawberry flavor and other flavors could have totally different results but just judging by the feeling I get from discreet, I think most of the flavors don't have much nic kick.

I'm just a curious dude and gave this a try. Please don't let this stop you from enjoying Discreet snus. It's just that after reading about how ph level may have a large effect on nicotine absorption I figured I would investigate.

[Snusdog]

That’s very interesting RRK. Nice work. It would be great to have Tom shed a little light on this one way or the other.

Anyway, when you find our how to turn base metal into pure gold, pm me.

[sagedil]

All PH affects is how fast the nicotine is absorbed. You keep it in long enough, and with Root Beer, this is easy, the whole amount of what is absorbable is taken in. Same really with whites, I get all my nicotine, just slower.

But yes, Discreet is not a morning snus for me. Only once I have bumped the nicotine level in my blood. But then, it works close to any other regular white for me.

But interesting results, the effort is most appreciated. First time ever someone has taken the time and inclination. :wink:

[RRK]

Anyway, when you find our how to turn base metal into pure gold, pm me.

I'm 131 years old. :wink:

[RRK]

All PH affects is how fast the nicotine is absorbed. You keep it in long enough, and with Root Beer, this is easy, the whole amount of what is absorbable is taken in.

But the amount that is absorbable is also dependant on PH. Here is a quote I found.

Although different products vary in their pH levels, snustypically has a pH in the range 7.8–8.5. This is importantbecause only nicotine in the free-base form is rapidlyabsorbed through the mucosal membrane, and the propor-tion of free-base nicotine available from tobacco is deter-mined by the pH level. For example Brunnemann andHoffmann compared two brands and found that one brandwith a pH of 5.84 had only 1% of the nicotine in the free-baseform and another brand with a pH of 7.99 had 59% of thenicotine available in free-base form for absorption. Anotherstudy found that a leading Swedish snus brand had a higherpH (and therefore probably more efficient nicotine delivery)than five comparison brands of US smokeless tobacco.

...and this from these forums.

...At low pH levels most of the nicotine in snus exists in an inactive form that cannot be taken up through the oral mucosa. At higher pH levels proportionately more of the nicotine is in the active free form that can be absorbed. At pH 8.1 the balance between the two forms is about 50:50, and at pH 8.5 c. 75% is in the active form (this pH dependence also explains why there is very low or almost no nicotine uptake if you accidentally swallow snus as a result of the typically extremely low pH in the stomach). The actual extraction of nicotine from a pouch is far from 100%. In fact, in real life a typical user only extracts about 10-20%...

Sincerly,
Joakim

[Asquar]

This is interesting, but I'm finding that while Discreet is on the low end for me in terms of nicotine hit (I'm almost exclusively into stark), the Discreet minis do seem to pack more of a punch than the standard Swedish 4mg stuff I've experimented with in the past, regardless of relative PH.

But if these types of conversations can lead to a stronger mini, I'm all in favor of it!

Cool stuff. Thanks for posting.

[justintempler]

Nice RRK,

I'd like to find a standardized test procedure for testing pH of snus.

[RRK]

Nice RRK,

I'd like to find a standardized test procedure for testing pH of snus.

Yeh, I don't think my method is very good for finding the true ph but I do believe that it shows that the Discreet ph is significantly lower then the General.

There is a method described here.

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hc-ps/tobac-t...ier/ph-eng.php

Seems fairly similar to the method I used actually with a much more controlled environment and measurements of course. I'd imagine my hot tub ph strips are probably not the greatest but I'm no chemist so thats what I had laying around. They don't seem to use a calculation to compensate for the ph of the water so maybe my strips just measure a little low. Common sense just told me that the ph of the water would dilute the ph of the tobacco.

[snusjus]

Nice RRK,

I'd like to find a standardized test procedure for testing pH of snus.

"I expect we will see more formal nicotine uptake studies in the future as a result of the recently enacted FDA regulation of the tobacco market in the US. Such studies may permit more science based answers than are possible today on these issues. However, such studies are apparently controversial in some circles. It was recently reported in Swedish media that the Regional Research Ethics Committee in Lund in southern Sweden had turned down an application to do such a study on various snus products. The Committee's decision was reported to be based on the view that the study was unnecessary because, in their view, society should work to abolish tobacco in any form. I have learnt that the decision now has been appealed. Based on my experience as chairman of the Karolinska Institute Research Ethics Committe during many years, I expect the appeal will go through."

Professor Lars-Erik Rutqvist (Senior Vice President Scientific Affairs, Swedish Match)

[justintempler]

...
Yeh, I don't think my method is very good for finding the true ph but I do believe that it shows that the Discreet ph is significantly lower then the General.....

yep so far I've found this:
http://www.atypon-link.com/doi/abs/1....2005.29.6.588
http://www.atypon-link.com/PNG/doi/p...88?cookieSet=1

Iqmik: A Form of Smokeless TobaccoUsed Among Alaska Natives

Sample pH was
measured after uniform suspension of
pulverized solids in Type I water using a
pH meter with hydrogen ion electrode
calibrated at pH 4.0, 7.0, and 10.0. For
comparative purposes, we analyzed a
sample of commercial ST (Copenhagen®)
that is known to have the highest nicotine
content and highest pH of any commercial
ST product.

They compared the pH of Iqmik against Copenhagen
They got a pH of 8.2 for Copenhagen (so atlest we know they're in the ballpark)
They used 2 grams (doesn't say if it was dry weight)
Note above* type 1 water

http://www.tobacco.org/News/010622BostonRe.html

Methods

pH

2 g snuff is suspended in 20 ml water, stirred for 15 minutes and the supernatant is measured with a combination electrode until the pH has stabilized.

Type 1 Reagent Grade Water aka Type 1 Reagent Grade Deionized Water

For our purposes we can use distilled water and pH paper

Anyone who at some point wants to make their own snus needs to have some way to adjust the pH of their batches so they have some consistency in flavor and potency. (That's why I want to learn) 8)

[justintempler]

just to finish what I started.....

pure water (distilled or deionized) is neutral - pH7
but as soon as you expose water to air it starts absorbing CO2 from the air and will become slightly acidic, anywhere from 5.6 - 7 pH

It's not critical but if you want to be anal about it and have perfectly neutral pH you can add up to 1/8 tsp of baking soda to gallon of distilled water to make it neutral (pH7)

They originally picked 2 grams of tobacco because that was the average dose of dip a user used. 2 grams is pretty much the standard.

Even if you have a electronic pH meter you can't use distilled water to calibrate it because ther are not enough ions in distilled water to "zero" your meter, so for the home tester pH paper is the way to go.

Human saliva has a pH of between 6.0 - 7.4, so there is no need to compensate for the pH in the water.

The last tip was waiting 15 minutes for the tobacco/water mixture to stabilize before measuring your pH.

[RRK]

just to finish what I started.....

pure water (distilled or deionized) is neutral - pH7
but as soon as you expose water to air it starts absorbing CO2 from the air and will become slightly acidic, anywhere from 5.6 - 7 pH

It's not critical but if you want to be anal about it and have perfectly neutral pH you can add up to 1/8 tsp of baking soda to gallon of distilled water to make it neutral (pH7)

They originally picked 2 grams of tobacco because that was the average dose of dip a user used. 2 grams is pretty much the standard.

Even if you have a electronic pH meter you can't use distilled water to calibrate it because ther are not enough ions in distilled water to "zero" your meter, so for the home tester pH paper is the way to go.

Human saliva has a pH of between 6.0 - 7.4, so there is no need to compensate for the pH in the water.

The last tip was waiting 15 minutes for the tobacco/water mixture to stabilize before measuring your pH.

Yeh if I do it again I think I would want to pick up a fresh pack of ph strips. I would remove the snus from the pouches and weigh it out on my food scale. I might try the 30 minutes of agitation followed by 1 hour in darkness method to saturate the liquid and of course do multiple tests to eliminate some error. I think I would probably go with 1g snus / 10ml water to conserve snus since I would probably be doing 3 tests. Then I would be fairly confident of my results. I used ziplock bags instead of beakers, do you think there is any problem with that?

I'm not so sure I will be doing much testing myself but I am planning on flavoring and sweetening some los and portioning it as well so I will probably be testing my flavoring solutions for ph. What are you thinking of using to bring ph up, baking soda? I think both the liquid stevia and the alcohol in the flavorings are around 5.5 so I will probably have to adjust it in some way.

[RRK]

just to finish what I started.....

pure water (distilled or deionized) is neutral - pH7
but as soon as you expose water to air it starts absorbing CO2 from the air and will become slightly acidic, anywhere from 5.6 - 7 pH

It's not critical but if you want to be anal about it and have perfectly neutral pH you can add up to 1/8 tsp of baking soda to gallon of distilled water to make it neutral (pH7)

They originally picked 2 grams of tobacco because that was the average dose of dip a user used. 2 grams is pretty much the standard.

Even if you have a electronic pH meter you can't use distilled water to calibrate it because ther are not enough ions in distilled water to "zero" your meter, so for the home tester pH paper is the way to go.

Human saliva has a pH of between 6.0 - 7.4, so there is no need to compensate for the pH in the water.

The last tip was waiting 15 minutes for the tobacco/water mixture to stabilize before measuring your pH.

Yeh if I do it again I think I would want to pick up a fresh pack of ph strips. I would remove the snus from the pouches and weigh it out on my food scale. I might try the 30 minutes of agitation followed by 1 hour in darkness method to saturate the liquid and of course do multiple tests to eliminate some error. I think I would probably go with 1g snus / 10ml water to conserve snus since I would probably be doing 3 tests. Then I would be fairly confident of my results. I used ziplock bags instead of beakers, do you think there is any problem with that?

I'm not so sure I will be doing much testing myself but I am planning on flavoring and sweetening some los and portioning it as well so I will probably be testing my flavoring solutions for ph. What are you thinking of using to bring ph up, baking soda?

[chadizzy1]

Did you check the pH of the water before adding the snus and then testing? That may have an affect on it. You'd be suprised by the pH of some waters you buy, it's a fun experiment, test the next dasani you get.

[justintempler]

What are you thinking of using to bring ph up, baking soda?

I would use sodium carbonate to raise the pH just like the big boys do.
I've read some posts that compared sodium carbonate to sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) and the sodium carbonate does a better job.