PACT ACT IS NOT DEAD......

[Monkey]

Access to Gotland snus is a real concern of mine. I'm hoping this crap won't affect things too badly, but 2 years ago, I didn't expect my snus habit to be affected at all....

It's in the Northerner American warehouse. I'm still ordering 50 cans when I get paid Thursday...

Mike

[Snusmun]

The PACT act certainly is not dead.






That one's for you LaZeR

[skruf_mcgruff]

Sorry to hear this, hope adapting isn't too hard for you or any of the other distributors.

[LaZeR]

Don't both charge out the ass for shipping though, as compared to Swedish Post Office -> USPS?

Yea on imported snus, basically they add a brokerage/customs fee on top of your shipping charges which is determined and presented to you later in an additional bill.

Bear in mind though, I believe I and others noted to this some pages back, that rumor has it UPS and FedEx are both opting out of shipping tobacco period once this flies. Again, This part is a rumor, BUT it is floating around for some reason I assume.

Bottom line, I think like Jonathon @ clubsnus noted. We as Americans are probably going to be limited to whatever snus we can get via in country vendors and at a premium by the time taxes and external shipping fees are added.

Finale': Our wonderful government passes yet another unconstitutional law to tax the shit out of us and at the same time restrict our freedoms.

Obama and the dems are @ the wheel currently so +1 to them for the "anal" intrusion. Would be nice to get a reach-around... Wait - Cigars maybe?....

[stubby2]

Bear in mind though, I believe I and others noted to this some pages back, that rumor has it UPS and FedEx are both opting out of shipping tobacco period once this flies. Again, This part is a rumor, BUT it is floating around for some reason I assume.

Lots of confusion on this, but the rumor is very likely wrong. UPS and FedEx have stated they will not ship cigarettes, and in fact have not shipped cigarettes for some time. This is the UPS policy on shipping tobacco.

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/res...s/tobacco.html

I once tracked down the source of this rumor and this is likely it

http://www.gop.gov/bill/111/1/hr1676

If you scroll down the page you'll find this

Several major private shipping companies, such as UPS, DSL, and FedEx, do not ship tobacco products. Currently, most orders for tobacco made over the internet in the U.S. are shipped using the USPS.

This may well be where the rumor started. It should read cigarettes, not tobacco. If UPS comes out with a clear statement that they will not ship any tobacco products I'm gonna panic, but I haven't seen anything that would point to that happening.

Of course I will have a years worth of snus in the deep freeze by the time this kicks in.

[lxskllr]

See my post on page 4. It looks like none of the big shippers will ship to New York, but the rest of the country is still open.

[stubby2]

See my post on page 4. It looks like none of the big shippers will ship to New York, but the rest of the country is still open.

That is one of the problems. The PACT act is a federal law but the states can cause all sorts of shenanigans. Of course they've been able to do that anyway without this bill so nothing has changed in that regard.

[sagedil]

Bear in mind though, I believe I and others noted to this some pages back, that rumor has it UPS and FedEx are both opting out of shipping tobacco period once this flies. Again, This part is a rumor, BUT it is floating around for some reason I assume.

Lots of confusion on this, but the rumor is very likely wrong. UPS and FedEx have stated they will not ship cigarettes, and in fact have not shipped cigarettes for some time. This is the UPS policy on shipping tobacco.

http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/res...s/tobacco.html

I once tracked down the source of this rumor and this is likely it

http://www.gop.gov/bill/111/1/hr1676

If you scroll down the page you'll find this

Several major private shipping companies, such as UPS, DSL, and FedEx, do not ship tobacco products. Currently, most orders for tobacco made over the internet in the U.S. are shipped using the USPS.

This may well be where the rumor started. It should read cigarettes, not tobacco. If UPS comes out with a clear statement that they will not ship any tobacco products I'm gonna panic, but I haven't seen anything that would point to that happening.

Of course I will have a years worth of snus in the deep freeze by the time this kicks in.

FWIW, most of the pipe tobacco big sellers ship UPS. Reason I won't use most of them. There are actually only two, Mars is one, that only ship USPS. So certainly, as late as last month, UPS was still shipping tobacco.

[lxskllr]

An interesting PACT analysis at Snuffhouse...

http://snuffhouse.org/discussion/346...vision/#Item_0

I think this topic deserves its own thread. Xander pointed out elsewhere that the Senate passed a version of the PACT bill that is truly gutless. Why? Because the sections on compliance and enforcement were eliminated. What does that leave? An empty gesture that extricates the federal government from PACT matters, really. (And that was the very point of the PACT proposal -- to get the federal government involved in what have always been state matters.)

You can compare the original and altered, final version here:

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...bill=s111-1147

Who was it exactly that pushed for the elimination of Sections 4 and 7? It's a brilliant bit of legal maneuvering, really. It renders PACT spineless and unenforceable, removing the federal government from any further involvement.

This was removed:

SEC. 4. COMPLIANCE WITH MODEL STATUTE OR QUALIFYING STATUTE. (a) In General- A Tobacco Product Manufacturer or importer may not sell in, deliver to, or place for delivery sale, or cause to be sold in, delivered to, or placed for delivery sale in a State that is a party to the Master Settlement Agreement, any cigarette manufactured by a Tobacco Product Manufacturer that is not in full compliance with the terms of the Model Statute or Qualifying Statute enacted by the State requiring funds to be placed into a qualified escrow account under specified conditions, and with any regulations promulgated pursuant to the statute. (b) Jurisdiction To Prevent and Restrain Violations- (1) IN GENERAL- The United States district courts shall have jurisdiction to prevent and restrain violations of subsection (a) in accordance with this subsection. (2) INITIATION OF ACTION- A State, through its attorney general, may bring an action in an appropriate United States district court to prevent and restrain violations of subsection (a) by any person. (3) ATTORNEY FEES- In any action under paragraph (2), a State, through its attorney general, shall be entitled to reasonable attorney fees from a person found to have knowingly violated subsection (a). (4) NONEXCLUSIVITY OF REMEDIES- The remedy available under paragraph (2) is in addition to any other remedies available under Federal, State, or other law. No provision of this Act or any other Federal law shall be held or construed to prohibit or preempt the Master Settlement Agreement, the Model Statute (as defined in the Master Settlement Agreement), any legislation amending or complementary to the Model Statute in effect as of June 1, 2006, or any legislation substantially similar to such existing, amending, or complementary legislation enacted after the date of enactment of this Act. (5) OTHER ENFORCEMENT ACTIONS- Nothing in this subsection shall be construed to prohibit an authorized State official from proceeding in State court or taking other enforcement actions on the basis of an alleged violation of State or other law. (6) AUTHORITY OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL- The Attorney General of the United States may bring an action in an appropriate United States district court to prevent and restrain violations of subsection (a) by any person. (c) Definitions- In this section the following definitions apply: (1) DELIVERY SALE- The term ‘delivery sale’ means any sale of cigarettes or smokeless tobacco to a consumer if-- (A) the consumer submits the order for the sale by means of a telephone or other method of voice transmission, the mails, or the Internet or other online service, or the seller is otherwise not in the physical presence of the buyer when the request for purchase or order is made; or (B) the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco are delivered to the buyer by common carrier, private delivery service, or other method of remote delivery, or the seller is not in the physical presence of the buyer when the buyer obtains possession of the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco. (2) IMPORTER- The term ‘importer’ means each of the following: (A) SHIPPING OR CONSIGNING- Any person in the United States to whom nontaxpaid tobacco products manufactured in a foreign country, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, or a possession of the United States are shipped or consigned. (B) MANUFACTURING WAREHOUSES- Any person who removes cigars or cigarettes for sale or consumption in the United States from a customs-bonded manufacturing warehouse. (C) UNLAWFUL IMPORTING- Any person who smuggles or otherwise unlawfully brings tobacco products into the United States. (3) MASTER SETTLEMENT AGREEMENT- The term ‘Master Settlement Agreement’ means the agreement executed November 23, 1998, between the attorneys general of 46 States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, and 4 territories of the United States and certain tobacco manufacturers. (4) MODEL STATUTE; QUALIFYING STATUTE- The terms ‘Model Statute’ and ‘Qualifying Statute’ means a statute as defined in section IX(d)(2)(e) of the Master Settlement Agreement. (5) TOBACCO PRODUCT MANUFACTURER- The term ‘Tobacco Product Manufacturer’ has the meaning given that term in section II(uu) of the Master Settlement Agreement. SEC. 5.



Remember, the above was eliminated from the version of the bill that the Senate passed. In other words, by striking this, PACT is essentially toothless.

(By the way, "a state that is a party to the Master Settlement Agreement" refers to the 46 states that reached a settlement agreement with the four major tobacco companies in November 1998. Mississippi, Florida, Texas and Minnesota were not party to the Master Settlement Agreement, having previously reached their own individual agreements with the tobacco companies.)

All that remains of Sec. 4 is its final sentence. Sec. 4 now simply reads:

INSPECTION BY BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES OF RECORDS OF CERTAIN CIGARETTE AND SMOKELESS TOBACCO SELLERS; CIVIL PENALTY.



This is a power that the ATF has always had. Nothing new to see here.

Section 7 was eliminated altogether:

SEC. 7. ENHANCED CONTRABAND TOBACCO ENFORCEMENT. (a) Requirements- The Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives shall-- (1) not later than the end of the 3-year period beginning on the effective date of this Act, create a regional contraband tobacco trafficking team in each of New York, New York, the District of Columbia, Detroit, Michigan, Los Angeles, California, Seattle, Washington, and Miami, Florida; (2) create a Tobacco Intelligence Center to oversee investigations and monitor and coordinate ongoing investigations and to serve as the coordinator for all ongoing tobacco diversion investigations within the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, in the United States and, where applicable, with law enforcement organizations around the world; (3) establish a covert national warehouse for undercover operations; and (4) create a computer database that will track and analyze information from retail sellers of tobacco products that sell through the Internet or by mail order or make other non-face-to-face sales. (b) Authorization of Appropriations- There is authorized to be appropriated to carry out subsection (a) $8,500,000 for each of fiscal years 2010 through 2014.



Translation: "All right, states. You want PACT? OK, but we are not going to allocate any funds or personnel for it. It is your problem, not ours. Goodbye, Sec. 7! We are not going to mess with the Jenkins Act, sorry. As for your precious Sec. 4, we took a razor to that as well. Leave the federal judiciary out of it, and the US Attorney General, too; no, your state attorneys general WILL NOT have the right to bring your PACT cases to a federal court. We do not want to hear about it. Enforcement is your state problem; we are not getting involved. We gave you your PACT. Leave us alone. Now good luck with all that!"

These changes make it seem that the revised PACT was designed to die in Committee once bounced back to the House, OR it is approved by the House, signed into law and means absolutely nothing.

I feel that this is a subject worth analyzing in more detail.

[GoVegan]

Lazer is our resident expert on strange taxes and shipping fees. Pact should just be a minor nuisance for him!

lxskllr - that analysis just seems to good to be true. I have seen what the feds did to online gaming and flavored smokes and I have a feeling we aren't seeing the whole picture. The Pact is huge and there is a lot to pour over but it is interesting that the Senate changed significant portions of this bill and then sent it back.

[LaZeR]

Lazer is our resident expert on strange taxes and shipping fees. Pact should just be a minor nuisance for him!

lxskllr - that analysis just seems to good to be true. I have seen what the feds did to online gaming and flavored smokes and I have a feeling we aren't seeing the whole picture. The Pact is huge and there is a lot to pour over but it is interesting that the Senate changed significant portions of this bill and then sent it back.

Yea but I'm even afraid of this one. Our Government has a way of F...ing up everything they touch these days.

At the very least I now see this personally about to make an affordable addiction/habit = not affordable, thus driving me into the underground where I would sooner not go. :?

[f. bandersnatch]

That transplant from snuffhouse was really informative, thank you for that.

In light of that information, I would say that passage in the house is not a foregone conclusion.

I will return to my previous line of positive thinking with regard to the PACT act, hoping that our government will do what it does best: argue with itself and get nothing done.

[Snusmun]

thnks for that info. lxs. Clearly the states have a vested interest in enforcing the collection of state taxes, but if the states have no access to federal courts regarding the Pact act, then I fail to see how they can enforce it. I could see this leading to various state laws that could at some point make the shipping companies bail out due to complexity, kinda like New York. Whatever the case, USPS shipping will still be outlawed, even if the bill is toothless.

LaZeR, if you live in PA then you will only see a very small increase in your snus costs, since there is no state tax....only $1.50/roll federal tax and extra shipping charges....maybe sales tax too....but it won't be $60 or $70 per roll like in Oregon or Maine.

[GoVegan]

More good info on Pact! I found a video on clubsnus that discusses the Pact Act thoroughly.

http://www.clubsnus.com/blog

[Treath]

Time to stock up. I just made an order.
PACT is going to make prices sky high to buy snus online.
Shipping and taxes alone are going to be probably more than $10.
I don't think I'll be able to afford buying snus unless tobacco shops start selling more brands of real Swedish snus in the US.

OR I'll have to start dipping...yum mouth cancer